Wide Stance Squat vs. Goblet Squat vs. Sumo Squat

SummerStriker

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I've been looking at alternate squats for a variety of reasons.

When someone does a wide stance barbell squat, they have an easier time breaking parallel because they start off a little closer to the ground. Their is more pressure on the hips but less on the knees because the shins are more vertical.

Is the goblet squat basically the same except the person performing it has better range of motion and can go down lower?

If that is the case, is there anything wrong with going way below parallel on a wide stance barbell squat?
 
The first question doesn't make sense. A goblet squat is just a front squat with some heavy object other than a barbell. Such as a dumb bell or a kettle bell. It has nothing to do with stance width.

As for the second question, no, there's nothing wrong with going "way below parallel" on a wide stance squat--as long as you have the flexibility to do so while still keeping your back muscles tight.
 
The first question doesn't make sense. A goblet squat is just a front squat with some heavy object other than a barbell. Such as a dumb bell or a kettle bell. It has nothing to do with stance width.

As for the second question, no, there's nothing wrong with going "way below parallel" on a wide stance squat--as long as you have the flexibility to do so while still keeping your back muscles tight.

I always thought that a goblet squat used a wide stance.

Thank you for the tip.
 
Unless you have the mobility of a gymnast, you wont be able to go much more than slightly below parallel using a wide stance squat.

For athletic and aesthetic purposes I would recommend a narrow stance, slightly wider than shoulder width stance. High bar of course.
Wide stance is only for powerlifters
 
They don't have an easier time breaking parallel. It doesn't matter if you start off a few inches closer to the ground, because the inches at the top aren't the ones that matter. Individuals who squat with an especially wide stance typically either squat equipped, most likely multi-ply, have tried to learn to squat raw using technique that's more applicable to equipped squatters, or have very flexible hips.

If you really want to experiment with stance width, the best approach is to try adjusting your squat width just very slightly, and seeing how that feels first, before trying to make any large changes. While there is naturally some variation in what stance width works best for different people, I suspect it's very unlikely that an especially wide stance works best for you.
 
I always thought that a goblet squat used a wide stance.

Thank you for the tip.

Well, it will set a ceiling on how narrow you can go, since you generally try to wedge your elbows between your thighs at the bottom of a goblet squat, so as a drill it helps to reinforce the "knees out" cue. It's probably the fastest way to teach someone the mechanics of the front squat.
 
Unless you have the mobility of a gymnast, you wont be able to go much more than slightly below parallel using a wide stance squat.

For athletic and aesthetic purposes I would recommend a narrow stance, slightly wider than shoulder width stance. High bar of course.
Wide stance is only for powerlifters

Why high bar of course? While I won't tell anyone what a general athlete should be doing, but an argument certainly could be made for a squat style that recruits more muscle and moves more weight.
 
My money's on the zombie front squat being the better teaching tool.

Many people starting off are uncomfortable with having the bar racked across their delts. I've always preferred goblet squats as a teaching tool for complete novices.
 
Why high bar of course? While I won't tell anyone what a general athlete should be doing, but an argument certainly could be made for a squat style that recruits more muscle and moves more weight.
Well just from off the top of my head:
1. The high bar is a more vertical movement, largely involving the quads and much less of the hamstrings. Hamstring training should be done separately.
2. The high bar translates greatly to low bar strength while the opposite is much less true.
3. Ive never seen any professional athletes use the low bar. Its a much more unathletic movement.
4. Less ROM and mobility required for low bar. For example: just because you can lift more weight with a quarter squat doesnt necessarily mean its better or it recruits more muscle fibers. ROM > Weight
5. The stance does not replicate any real athletic in-game situations. High bar is just simply 'more realistic'

Here is two google searches I quickly did about high vs low. Im sure you can find a ton more better articles and forum arguments to support this stance than vice-versa. (Besides Rippetoe of course)

I know that what I am about to write will piss some people off, but I
 
Use of High Bar, Olympic Style Squats with Athletes
Posted by John P. Wagle

The depth of squat used in training with student athletes is an often debated topic. The debate goes back and forth on whether the powerlifting style (parallel) squat or Olympic style (hamstrings cover the calves) is the proper training tool. The toughest part is that there are so many factors to consider, such as: safety, physiological benefit (strength, power, hypertrophy, etc.), ability (the athlete's ability to even execute the movement), among countless others. I personally prefer to have the student-athletes use an Olympic style squat (front, back, or overhead), but do see a value in using the powerlifting style squat in certain occasions.

First, I would like to give my take on injuries and using the Olympic squat. I am of the belief that the likelihood of both acute and chronic injury is less using the Olympic squat. For starters, most injuries are seen when significant fatigue sets in and muscle and joint proprioceptor activity is decreased, regardless of squat depth (Schoenfeld, 2010). The point is, that the enemy in this case is not the squat or the depth, but actually reaching excessive amounts of fatigue. There are greater forces and anterior-posterior joint displacements using the Olympic squat instead of the powerlifting squat, but large forces and displacements are seen in sport very often (Swinton et al., 2012). If student-athletes are going to face these challenges in competition, where everything is random and reactive, then I believe we should train them in similar planes. At least in training, coaches get to control the amount of force, stress, volume, and other variables that may effect the safety of the athlete. Even if these forces are greater in the Olympic squat, the magnitude of forces seen through the hips and knees are well within the typically tolerated forces of these joints (Schoenfeld, 2010).

That being said, using the full range of motion (ROM) Olympic squat has been shown to actually improve flexibility and joint ROM through hip extension and flexion, knee flexion and extension, and ankle dorsiflexion (Kim et al., 2011; Monteiro et al., 2008; Morton et al., 2011). Improved joint ROM decreases the likelihood of injury and makes it more likely that the athletes stay in competition and are able to train for full offseasons, thus making the cumulative effects of your training that much greater.

With this increased joint ROM, athletes are capable of unlocking more strength than they otherwise would having limited joint ROM, especially around the ankles (Macrum, 2012). Training at a full ROM gives athletes strength at a full ROM, making it easier for them to have to ability to apply force during competition, no matter what situation arises. Using this ROM has relatively the same peak force, velocity, and power when compared to the powerlifting squat as well (Swinton et al., 2012). The Olympic squat keeps all these metrics the same, while decreasing the absolute load, which may provide a benefit in itself. Either way, the name of the game is increasing magnitude and rate of force production, and those metrics of performance are very attainable using the Olympic squat.

Along with these physiological benefits of the Olympic squat, testing also becomes much easier. Not only do loads decrease as a result of the depth, but the amount of depth becomes standardized for everyone. There is no more question of, "Did he/she get low enough?" If the athlete hits rock bottom, then they were low enough, if not, no repetition. I realize that not all athletes are going to be able to achieve this position, which presents movement dysfunction for the athlete to improve upon. For testing, just make note of the depth and let the athlete test with the rest of the team as long as doing so is not dangerous for the athlete. For training, the athlete still needs to gain strength, power, and fitness, and should perform powerlifting-depth squats (still high bar positioning, however, because athletics happens with an upright torso, so train that way). If the athlete continues to fight for depth and work on specific mobility issues (and probably some glute-activation), then his or her depth is likely to improve, thus improving the dysfunction and likely improving performance in the weight room and in competition.

Some athletes will take up issue of the humbling aspect of performing this difficult lift. They will not be able to lift as much as they can with the powerlifting squat. Those that cannot hit the depth may get upset that they have to drop weight to do the lift correctly or just be frustrated in general they cannot execute the movement. If the culture you create in training is executing movements perfectly and you consistently encourage good technique over big weights, the athletes will catch on. Reward them for taking pride in quality of movement over the amount of weight lifted and stress the importance of the squat and the rest of your program in improving their performance, decreasing the likelihood of injury, and all the other goals of your programming. Ultimately, high level athletes should have the capacity to perform basic movements to full ROM, and it starts with the squat.
http://strengthperformance.com/profiles/blogs/use-of-high-bar-olympic-style-squats-with-athletes
 
Those articles are generally confounding other elements of the squat that are sometimes associated with bar position, like stance width and ROM, with elements directly associated with bar position. Furthermore, the differences between low bar and high bar squats are very often exaggerated, and individual biomechanics and other elements, like stance width, make more of a difference in squat technique than bar position. I bet, if shown video of weightlifters and (raw) powerlifters squatting from the waist down, most people couldn't tell who squats how.

Also, unless you can provide a really good explanation, the idea that I want to target specifically the quads and the glutes, but definitely not the hamstrings, when I squat sounds bizarre. I want to target everything, but most of all, I want to target squatting.
 
Well just from off the top of my head:
1. The high bar is a more vertical movement, largely involving the quads and much less of the hamstrings. Hamstring training should be done separately.

Why should it be done separately though? There's no less quad involvement in low bar, just more hamstring and glute involvement. I fail to see how this is a bad thing. You know what involves even less hamstring? Leg extensions.

2. The high bar translates greatly to low bar strength while the opposite is much less true.

Speaking from personal experience, this is untrue. My low-bar squat goes up, my front squat goes up, as does my high-bar. I had a period of high bar training, and found virtually no carryover to my low-bar squat.

3. Ive never seen any professional athletes use the low bar. Its a much more unathletic movement.

Define "athletic". I fail to understand this point. What makes a high-bar squat more athletic? Most professional athletes I've seen do half-squats.

4. Less ROM and mobility required for low bar. For example: just because you can lift more weight with a quarter squat doesnt necessarily mean its better or it recruits more muscle fibers. ROM > Weight

You'll find a good low-bar squat requires plenty of mobility in the hips. ROM =/= mobility. I can get the most ROM with a pistol squat, does that mean it's superior for strength development?

5. The stance does not replicate any real athletic in-game situations. High bar is just simply 'more realistic'

Strength is a general quality, application is what is specific. I'm curious though, in what situation do you purposely squat down and stand up? For resisting force, such as an incoming opponent, you can be damn sure that a wide stance is more stable, and therefore much more sport-specific. Try blocking an opponent with a shoulder-width stance and a wider stance. You'll find the wider stance works better. Crazy, huh?

Here is two google searches I quickly did about high vs low. Im sure you can find a ton more better articles and forum arguments to support this stance than vice-versa. (Besides Rippetoe of course)

Would you accept Louie Simmons? I'd say that most pro-high bar arguments are made from WL coaches. Obviously there is some bias there.
 
Ok... Looks like we got a bunch of powerlifters in these forums. You guys are right. Low bar surely is superior.
 
A high bar squat and a low bar squat are *much* more similar to each other than either of them is to any particular in-game movement for an athlete (who is neither a weightlifter nor a powerlifter). Meanwhile, they're both great for developing general strength that can be applied in many sports and athletic activities.

This whole idea that your strength training needs to mimic movements that you do in your sport, is so stupid. If it were true, then why not just do stuff like punching with dumbbells in your hands, and sprinting with ankle weights on?
 
Ok... Looks like we got a bunch of powerlifters in these forums. You guys are right. Low bar surely is superior.

No, what we're saying is that high bar vs low bar doesn't matter unless you are a competitive lifter.

Stop trying to hijack this and turn it into another fucking high bar vs. low bar thread. TS was asking about goblet squats and wide stance. Not at all related.
 
A high bar squat and a low bar squat are *much* more similar to each other than either of them is to any particular in-game movement for an athlete (who is neither a weightlifter nor a powerlifter). Meanwhile, they're both great for developing general strength that can be applied in many sports and athletic activities.

This whole idea that your strength training needs to mimic movements that you do in your sport, is so stupid. If it were true, then why not just do stuff like punching with dumbbells in your hands, and sprinting with ankle weights on?

Although you may have gotten from my post I was advocating mimicking movements (Which I have not.)

Being more vertical while not sacrificing too much weight to the front squat is superior.
But whatever guys, dont listen to professional S&C coaches and low-bar squat

I wonder why explosive athletes use USA weightlifting techniques and not powerlifting.. Whatever.
 
No, what we're saying is that high bar vs low bar doesn't matter unless you are a competitive lifter.

Stop trying to hijack this and turn it into another fucking high bar vs. low bar thread. TS was asking about goblet squats and wide stance. Not at all related.
I didnt. Fightingspirit brought the question up you fucking shertard. This forum is literally the epitome of trolling and retardedness. I thought it was just an urban legend but its actually forreal. Laughing stock of the MMA community
 
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