Why kickboxing/K1/any variations of it are so poor?

[MRudi]

I know that Kickboxing has like no money. But like absolutely no money.
Glory is paying so little, they need to carefully pick avenues, that they won't get fined by paying below local minimal wage and they still faced bankruptcy and are like barely hanging after again cutting on paychecks and fighters
And they are/were like the prime kickboxing organisation.
OFF problems and scams are widely known.
My question is - why?
Kickboxing is huge in very rich countries like NL or Japan, at least little popular and known in many more. People train combat sports all over world and need fighting gear = sponsorship money.
4th rade sports like Speedway, Snooker, Dart, Ski Jumping can make many practicioner truly rich people.
And then you go for main event in premier organisation and you got 2-month Walmart cashier salary that you need to split between coaches and pay from it preparations.

I have read about situation and I know the "basic" explanation, but it doesn't add to me with all the visible popularity and potential money.

 

[Snubnoze707]

It's no where near as bad as you are presenting it to be...

 

[SuperLuigi]

The champions are rich, the top 15 can make a living. Its about as much as you can ask of a sport thats not that popular. Its fairly popular in Japan and NL, which is why guys like Tenshin and Badr can get big paydays, but its unrealistic to expect overall pay is gonna be UFC level.

 

[MRudi]

It's no where near as bad as you are presenting it to be...

The champions are rich, the top 15 can make a living. Its about as much as you can ask of a sport thats not that popular. Its fairly popular in Japan and NL, which is why guys like Tenshin and Badr can get big paydays, but its unrealistic to expect overall pay is gonna be UFC level.

Varga as a champion got like 8k $ per fight. Per year? Yeah, it is you can make a living in rural area of Phillipines rich.

https://i.redd.it/aymumov469v01.jpg

I mean, if you say this checks aren't that bad, you must live in some war ruined hellhole. No way you can live off this in any normal country.

 

[Doctor Grudge]

Kickboxing isn't popular. Why would they be making a lot of money?

I think you're just stereotyping off of athletics, because you're calling a sport snooker 4th rate, as if more people are familiar with kickboxing than snooker. 10x more people play snooker and darts than kickboxing, they're not even in the same hemisphere in terms of recreation.

It's also easier to monetize balls, darts, tables, snowboards, goggles.

What are you going to monetize with kickboxing? If you're working with a company that sells boxing gloves and handwraps, why wouldn't you just use a famous boxer instead?


Top tier kickboxers make a middle class income. A lot of them do live in areas where the cost of living is cheap, likely in part due to that.

The biggest kickboxing markets are in Asia also. Gabriel Varga is probably more well known now for his YouTube channel than when he was in Bellator (which wasn't a very successful promotion) or Glory.

I think Varga said/implied he makes like 50k a year on his channel.

 

[MRudi]

Kickboxing isn't popular. Why would they be making a lot of money?

I think you're just stereotyping off of athletics, because you're calling a sport snooker 4th rate, as if more people are familiar with kickboxing than snooker. 10x more people play snooker and darts than kickboxing, they're not even in the same hemisphere in terms of recreation.

It's also easier to monetize balls, darts, tables, snowboards, goggles.

What are you going to monetize with kickboxing? If you're working with a company that sells boxing gloves and handwraps, why wouldn't you just use a famous boxer instead?


Top tier kickboxers make a middle class income. A lot of them do live in areas where the cost of living is cheap, likely in part due to that.

The biggest kickboxing markets are in Asia also. They are better paid there than Bellator kickboxing, which wasn't really that big of a promotion.

I mean, but kickboxing is popular. I dont know anyone, who plays snooker like snooker, not like billard in bar once a couple year. Same with darts.
I know people outside of my fighting gym, that trains, watch etc.
There are a lot of things to monetise, even in clothes there is much more potential in kickboxing than in darts or snooker.

And I am not living in country known for kickboxing, yet in my small city there is a plenty of gyms. Snooker club according to google in all metro area for ~4 mln is one.

 

[Doctor Grudge]

I mean, but kickboxing is popular. I dont know anyone, who plays snooker like snooker, not like billard in bar once a couple year. Same with darts.
I know people outside of my fighting gym, that trains, watch etc.
There are a lot of things to monetise, even in clothes there is much more potential in kickboxing than in darts or snooker.

And I am not living in country known for kickboxing, yet in my small city there is a plenty of gyms. Snooker club according to google in all metro area for ~4 mln is one.

You may be bubbled. I live in Taiwan and there is zero fanfare for kickboxing, and there are darts everywhere. Can't even go a block without seeing a dart venue.

If I fly over to Philippines next door where there is an actual sizable Sanda scene, but KB is absolutely miniscule compared to their snooker and pool scene.

If we go to the big boy market like USA, kickboxing is just as obscure. I grew up in a major city and never met anyone that knows any kickboxers except a few old MMA fans that may have seen K1 here and there. When I tell people I watch a niche sport, they think I mean hockey, MMA, or motorracing.


Even just thinking logically, why would there be more kickboxers than people who play darts or snooker? Darts and snooker can be enjoyed in pubs or at proper venues. They can be played casually or competitively. You can play by yourself or with friends. It's neither overly masculine or feminine. It can be played at all ages.

Kickboxing has none of those things. It has all of the downsides that violent sports has, while also being in the shadow of more popular violent sports.

Which country are you referencing in regards to it not being known for kickboxing but having a lot of (k1 style?) kickboxing gyms? I could see a lot of Muay Thai or cardio kickboxing, but k1 style?



Kickboxing has a few hubs, but even within those hubs like The Netherlands it's still niche. It isn't a surprise these guys aren't making bank. You can also compete in snooker and darts way more often, thus entering more tournaments with sizable pots.

 

[Doctor Grudge]

If the money isn't evident enough that those sports are just simply more popular than kickboxing, then think about how precision sports are in the Olympics.

 

[MRudi]

You may be bubbled. I live in Taiwan and there is zero fanfare for kickboxing, and there are darts everywhere. Can't even go a block without seeing a dart venue.

If I fly over to Philippines next door where there is an actual sizable Sanda scene, but KB is absolutely miniscule compared to their snooker and pool scene.

If we go to the big boy market like USA, kickboxing is just as obscure. I grew up in a major city and never met anyone that knows any kickboxers except a few old MMA fans that may have seen K1 here and there. When I tell people I watch a niche sport, they think I mean hockey, MMA, or motorracing.


Even just thinking logically, why would there be more kickboxers than people who play darts or snooker? Darts and snooker can be enjoyed in pubs or at proper venues. They can be played casually or competitively. You can play by yourself or with friends. It's neither overly masculine or feminine. It can be played at all ages.

Kickboxing has none of those things. It has all of the downsides that violent sports has, while also being in the shadow of more popular violent sports.

Which country are you referencing in regards to it not being known for kickboxing but having a lot of (k1 style?) kickboxing gyms? I could see a lot of Muay Thai or cardio kickboxing, but k1 style?



Kickboxing has a few hubs, but even within those hubs like The Netherlands it's still niche. It isn't a surprise these guys aren't making bank. You can also compete in snooker and darts way more often, thus entering more tournaments with sizable pots.

I reference kickboxing, k-1, Muay Thai clubs as the same, as they train basically same here. Even if you go for Muay Thai lessons here, elbows are going to be basically non existant.
Poland.

I mean, Darts and billard here(and everywhere, where I travelled) are treated as a way of to some activity aroudn the beer sometimes. Nobody knows exactly the rules, nobody cares about this being a sport, Kind of like you woud compare dog walking as a discipline.
I travel a lot and even if I notice somewhere darts or billard, they are just some stand in in bars. Not a thing, you actively train to be better.

 

[SandisLL]

I mean, but kickboxing is popular. I dont know anyone, who plays snooker like snooker, not like billard in bar once a couple year. Same with darts.
I know people outside of my fighting gym, that trains, watch etc.
There are a lot of things to monetise, even in clothes there is much more potential in kickboxing than in darts or snooker.

And I am not living in country known for kickboxing, yet in my small city there is a plenty of gyms. Snooker club according to google in all metro area for ~4 mln is one.

You mean for hobby and ams for youth? Or it's elements to be used as part of SD arsenal?
Yes.
For money and as career job it depends from country, your name and how much tickets you might sell. This.
Therefore guys like Huck, Briedis, Klits, Povetkin opted to be pro boxers instead of pro Kbers. Pov even managed to turn from high level am KBer to high level am boxer and get Olympic Gold ....
Drozd was am MT guy and opted to be a pro boxer.
Etc examples.

Some KBers even does have shares in gyms and are selling perks etc...and these gyms gladly serves hobbyists too.

So yes, after big money in Japan ended, KB is low money fights if your aren't big name...

 

[SandisLL]

If about pro KB and pro boxing in pro boxing is easy to get fights if you are bum with short notice rather than if you might be dangerous....and aren't with some name to Google up easily. Then opponent will ask more ....
Fight record in pro boxing very seriously impacts potential to earn with ad and endorsement deals and ranking too. And this impacts also ability to get better fight purse.

I do know some cases when fighter even had been ranked better after he had lost fight on cards vs highly ranked fighter with good record in pros.
For example you lost fight vs boxer ranked by org W in top 12 and ranked by org X in top 50.
Lost 10 rounder on cards ...and cos your ranking was well below top 100....now you are in top 100. Cos had been excepted that you will be done in distance. On paper should had been done...most likely.

Depends from orgs and algos used in this year.

 

[SandisLL]

If the money isn't evident enough that those sports are just simply more popular than kickboxing, then think about how precision sports are in the Olympics.

There are very big difference between countries in Olympic sports.
Some countries might pay you for gold medal with phrase " thank you " , some might gave car, flat and maybe on top of this 50000$ or a bit more...
Some countries doesn't care IRL how you will train.
Some might IF you are accepted in Olympic team and expected to get good place to assign coddling and babysitting for 4 years : financial support for food to put in mouth, service like pool, massage, sport doctors, physiotherpy and bloodwork paid , S/C specialists, normal insurance and...if you get normal places, premials and perks. Etc kind of support.
One from countries supposed to be poor by average americans : for bronza medal dictator had paid with large flat and expensive Mercedes + 50000 € on top...

 

[SandisLL]

If about pro boxing or pro KB you initially should think how to get some first fights suitable for you and regardless will you be offered 100$ or 5000$ ....prepare invest in your career more than you will earn from fights. Definitely more than 2 months cashier salary on top of this.
Pro fighting is career job where you initially need to invest...unless you are am superstar or star or otherwise well known or at least have someone to back up you financially cos other reasons.

You will need to invest a lot of time to train and rest, normal nutrition schedule, control weight on routine basis, to avoid injuries and hope a lot etc.
Also to avoid to sign wrong for you papers, short notice fights etc...


Or to be a bag for someone and when record will be too bad, then....

Or to fight studs for paycheck and bums for record...

Ppl in this business are snakes.
While direct offers to throw fight usually aren't used.
Sneaky matchmaking, clauses in contracts, short notices etc stuff are wunderland...

 

[SandisLL]

There is also thing often overlooked and underrated threat...
Deals with companies about ads and edorsement deals, affiliate programs etc. These contracts might have a lot of points and clauses....and should be studied really carefully.
For example might be exclusive contract clauses that you can't advertise other company during timeframe xx - xx or can't advertise other company without their written permit etc...otherwise they might not pay etc...
It is literally ad business like in other businesses.

 

[SuperLuigi]

Varga as a champion got like 8k $ per fight. Per year? Yeah, it is you can make a living in rural area of Phillipines rich.

https://i.redd.it/aymumov469v01.jpg

I mean, if you say this checks aren't that bad, you must live in some war ruined hellhole. No way you can live off this in any normal country.

Reported pay isnt full pay. For an example of Glory pay when they signed Sittichai his contract was ~15K/15K. So you can be a contender and win 2/3 fights for example and make 75K. Basically what you would expect.

 

[Snubnoze707]

Reported pay isnt full pay. For an example of Glory pay when they signed Sittichai his contract was ~15K/15K. So you can be a contender and win 2/3 fights for example and make 75K. Basically what you would expect.

Exactly, promotions from outside the US always do this when putting on events in the US to avoid the high taxes.

Those aren't the real payouts.

 

[Doctor Grudge]

I reference kickboxing, k-1, Muay Thai clubs as the same, as they train basically same here. Even if you go for Muay Thai lessons here, elbows are going to be basically non existant.
Poland.

I mean, Darts and billard here(and everywhere, where I travelled) are treated as a way of to some activity aroudn the beer sometimes. Nobody knows exactly the rules, nobody cares about this being a sport, Kind of like you woud compare dog walking as a discipline.
I travel a lot and even if I notice somewhere darts or billard, they are just some stand in in bars. Not a thing, you actively train to be better.

Yeah, I get that. But but those bars have regulars, and regulars will play. When people play things they get more competitive about it. Some of those places will have weekly tournaments and things like that, and that is just local level.

I'm sure you've heard or seen the "hustler" in snooker in movies. Guys who play cash games with just random locals. There are a lot more people who play the game at an intermediate level than people who know how to kickbox.

Only a fraction of their large casual fanbase needs to take it seriously for there to be sizable pots and advertisements.


Plus, look at it this way. If you're a company that makes sporting goods, or a company that sells them - you're going to sell snooker and darts and other sports people casually play for fun.

If you're going to have a sponsor attached to those products, you're probably going to get the best player you know.

Can you really do that with kickboxing? Not really. Like I said, they would just sign a boxer instead if they wanted to sell wraps, mouthpieces, gloves, etc. Heck, boxers can also monetize shoes which everyone needs if they want to start boxing.




I see you're talking about Muay Thai gyms. Yes, they are fairly popular now.

 

[MRudi]

Yeah, I get that. But but those bars have regulars, and regulars will play. When people play things they get more competitive about it. Some of those places will have weekly tournaments and things like that, and that is just local level.

I'm sure you've heard or seen the "hustler" in snooker in movies. Guys who play cash games with just random locals. There are a lot more people who play the game at an intermediate level than people who know how to kickbox.

Only a fraction of their large casual fanbase needs to take it seriously for there to be sizable pots and advertisements.


Plus, look at it this way. If you're a company that makes sporting goods, or a company that sells them - you're going to sell snooker and darts and other sports people casually play for fun.

If you're going to have a sponsor attached to those products, you're probably going to get the best player you know.

Can you really do that with kickboxing? Not really. Like I said, they would just sign a boxer instead if they wanted to sell wraps, mouthpieces, gloves, etc. Heck, boxers can also monetize shoes which everyone needs if they want to start boxing.




I see you're talking about Muay Thai gyms. Yes, they are fairly popular now.

Maybe the reason we are talking is that in my country darts or snooker are nonexistant. I never heard or seen anywhere anybody playing dart or pool on money. You don't play it here with randoms either.

In Kickboxing you got pads or shinguards. Here are requied to train. And if you buy shinguard, you may want it matched with gloves and mouthpieces and shirts and shorts. And here you can't use kickboxer.

 

[Doctor Grudge]

Maybe the reason we are talking is that in my country darts or snooker are nonexistant. I never heard or seen anywhere anybody playing dart or pool on money. You don't play it here with randoms either.

In Kickboxing you got pads or shinguards. Here are requied to train. And if you buy shinguard, you may want it matched with gloves and mouthpieces and shirts and shorts. And here you can't use kickboxer.

I don't think most people really have their own pads though. Those are usually products the gym will buy, not individuals.

 

[MRudi]

I don't think most people really have their own pads though. Those are usually products the gym will buy, not individuals.

I bought, but I pay for personal trainer on the other hand