Why John Danaher Refused to Shake Hands with Mike Davila at EBI

[BJJ_Rage]

oh god, no.

i can't figure out why people are in love with these rules, for the life of me. and it's often the very same people who complain about the IBJJF point system and people "gaming" it.

under IBJJF you have to produce some kind of offense, whereas you can win under EBI rules by being utterly defensive and escaping quicker than your opponent in the OT. it's ridiculous.

Or submit the person, in ibjjf you can win by almost doing something or looking better, neither is perfect, but ebi are more exiting, remember ebi ot are for sub only rules, not points tournaments.

also, no you cant win by being uterlly defensive, if you are utterly defensive you are hardly going to escape faster, to escape faster you have to open up, thats the whole point of adding escaping times.

also, this only happnes if there wasnt a submission in 3 rounds, is the last resorting, no the goal, but yeah you can still game the rules of the OT, by racking up time while you are attacking (aka holding a tight sit belt and doing very little to advance) stalling cards have been introduced for this, the rules are not perfect, but sure as hell are way more exiting than having draws, not to mention isnce is a tournament format, you cant have draws.

 

[BJJ_Rage]

No. But once again, no one else is really doing anything to make the art more mainstream so it is what it is.

do you a better idea to solve sub only draws?

Who else did he beat again?

davila and cooper, actually domingos lost to geo..

No, I'm sorry you're taking it that way but I've never said that or even implied that. On a technicality heel hooks aren't actually a part of BJJ, they're part of submission grappling...

you actually did, but on a technicality, hh are not part of IBJJF or better say, are banned IN BJJ competitions (not all) that doesnt mean it isnt part of the art. chave de calcanhar was taught to me very early in my bjj journey I was also taught not to do in competition...

Who has he actually beaten? So he spammed leg attacks against someone who is considered an elite and went to a draw, so now he's king dick? By that account, Brendan Schaub is an elite for taking Cyborg to a draw LOL..

you think because both went to a draw the analogy applies? he spamming leg attacks means he was attacking, shaub was running from the match, not the same thing, if anything.

Right, it was because other elite competitors entered...

Well, I think that is way more feasible than "his team being in gi season, so he has to be there for them" (or something like that) he knew before hand when he accepted that it was going to be in gi season, he couldve said no right from the start. Im not saying andre was ducking anyone, but I am saying the payment structure makes little sense as soon as the tournament is filled with elite guys. They could compete win the whole thing and get paid zero.

His guard retention is sick. Haven't seen too much of his back attacks though. Any specific matches I could watch?

I thought he was all marketing?

 

[Steve08]

His guard retention is sick. Haven't seen too much of his back attacks though. Any specific matches I could watch?

Well, those two for one. EBI7 is on Fight pass if you have it. Other than that it seems like his primary objective is to get to either the legs or back, in contrast to Garry who tries to attack anything he can and create scrambles.

 

[randomg1t]

Or submit the person, in ibjjf you can win by almost doing something or looking better, neither is perfect, but ebi are more exiting, remember ebi ot are for sub only rules, not points tournaments.

also, no you cant win by being uterlly defensive, if you are utterly defensive you are hardly going to escape faster, to escape faster you have to open up, thats the whole point of adding escaping times.

also, this only happnes if there wasnt a submission in 3 rounds, is the last resorting, no the goal, but yeah you can still game the rules of the OT, by racking up time while you are attacking (aka holding a tight sit belt and doing very little to advance) stalling cards have been introduced for this, the rules are not perfect, but sure as hell are way more exiting than having draws, not to mention isnce is a tournament format, you cant have draws.

well yeah, obviously you can submit the person, as you can under IBJJF.

i don't know about exciting, a guy being completely defensive for three rounds and doing nothing but closing up and trying to get to overtime does not excite me. guys can (and have) beaten opponents who were far superior to them in skill by clamping up, getting owned positionally, holding on for dear life until overtime, and then escaping faster than their opponent. someone goes three rounds, mounting his opponent the whole time, but then loses because he couldn't get out of back control faster, while his opponent could never take his back on his own in a million years. i don't see how this is superior to winning by an advantage under IBJJF.

the purpose of these rules is no points, no time limits, right? because points and time limits are the root of all evil and lead to stalling and gaming of the rules! but there is a time limit, and there are "points", only in the form of the time it takes you to escape an arbitrarily chosen position. these rules are no different than IBJJF, except they ignore positional control, which is dumb. and then in overtime it's suddenly all about positional control, but not establishing it... it's something i'd expect to come up with while stoned. which is probably exactly what happened.

 

[BJJ_Rage]

well yeah, obviously you can submit the person, as you can under IBJJF.

i don't know about exciting, a guy being completely defensive for three rounds and doing nothing but closing up and trying to get to overtime does not excite me. guys can (and have) beaten opponents who were far superior to them in skill by clamping up, getting owned positionally, holding on for dear life until overtime, and then escaping faster than their opponent. someone goes three rounds, mounting his opponent the whole time, but then loses because he couldn't get out of back control faster, while his opponent could never take his back on his own in a million years. i don't see how this is superior to winning by an advantage under IBJJF..

Have you actually watch any EBI, you are talking as you havent not, you dont go 3 rounds, you go 10 minutes, then you go to 3 rounds OT. I think you havent otherways wouldnt be here writing this

a guy being completely defensive for three rounds and doing nothing but closing up and trying to get to overtime does not excite me.

it really seems you have not watch a single ebi, if you havent do it, then get your conclusions. No one has beaten a far superior grappler by escaping faster. The closest might have been Gordon ryan beating yuri simoes, in that match, yuri controlled gordon for most of the regulation time, but Gordon subed him in the OT.

the purpose of these rules is no points, no time limits, right? because points and time limits are the root of all evil and lead to stalling and gaming of the rules! but there is a time limit, and there are "points", only in the form of the time it takes you to escape an arbitrarily chosen position. these rules are no different than IBJJF, except they ignore positional control, which is dumb. and then in overtime it's suddenly all about positional control, but not establishing it... it's something i'd expect to come up with while stoned. which is probably exactly what happened.

here we go again with adding escaping time...ITS THE LAST RESORT, how hard is this for you to understand? , if you take this incentive away, people is going to do jack shit and stay defending for ever, you need to make the guy defending want to escape, other ways it will take for ever.

I have watched every single EBI, and very very very few matches were decided on escaping time. BEsides the one with joe soto soting the game (which was the reason why stalling cards were added) I dont remember a single ebi that had more than 1 or 2 matches at most in the whole card decedided by escaping time.

by the way, the rules are sub only, TIME limit, no one ever said no time limit.

 

[nodferatu]

do you a better idea to solve sub only draws?

Are you retarded? Do you read all of the post or just skim through it?

davila and cooper, actually domingos lost to geo..

So his best win is a Cooper who hasn't competed or really trained in how long?

you actually did, but on a technicality, hh are not part of IBJJF or better say, are banned IN BJJ competitions (not all) that doesnt mean it isnt part of the art. chave de calcanhar was taught to me very early in my bjj journey I was also taught not to do in competition...

Wait...what?

you think because both went to a draw the analogy applies? he spamming leg attacks means he was attacking, shaub was running from the match, not the same thing, if anything.

To use your own quote "dude went toe to toe for 2 hours with someone whos beaten rafel fucking mendes and a whole bunch of the elite" - While Cyborg hasn't beaten Rafa nor did Schaub go for two hours, Cyborg has still beaten a lotof Upper Echelon and Schaub still took Cyborg to the limit of the match.

By using your own BJJ math Schaub is now considered elite.

Well, I think that is way more feasible than "his team being in gi season, so he has to be there for them" (or something like that) he knew before hand when he accepted that it was going to be in gi season, he couldve said no right from the start. Im not saying andre was ducking anyone, but I am saying the payment structure makes little sense as soon as the tournament is filled with elite guys. They could compete win the whole thing and get paid zero.

"Who the fuck are you to say that" is what you said to me. So who the fuck are you to say what you're saying about them?

I thought he was all marketing?

Now I know you're at least half downs. Because I said he's all marketing, and I complemented his guard retention, that is now me not saying he's all marketing?

I see why no one takes you seriously. I think I'm done here with you lol.

 

[nodferatu]

Well, those two for one. EBI7 is on Fight pass if you have it. Other than that it seems like his primary objective is to get to either the legs or back, in contrast to Garry who tries to attack anything he can and create scrambles.

I'll have to watch EBI7 then. Thanks Steve

 

[BJJ_Rage]

So his best win is a Cooper who hasn't competed or really trained in how long?

going by name, mmmm.. I would have to say yes.

Wait...what?

cant you read? just because one technique is banned from an specific ruleset doesnt mean is not part of the art.

To use your own quote "dude went toe to toe for 2 hours with someone whos beaten rafel fucking mendes and a whole bunch of the elite" - While Cyborg hasn't beaten Rafa nor did Schaub go for two hours, Cyborg has still beaten a lotof Upper Echelon and Schaub still took Cyborg to the limit of the match.

By using your own BJJ math Schaub is now considered elite.

wut? is not the opponent, eddie was spamming (as you sad) leg locks for 20 minutes (this would have to mean by definition that he was actually attacking tanquinho), did shaub attack cyborg one single time? 2 working brain cells its all it takes to get the flaw on your analogy.

"Who the fuck are you to say that" is what you said to me. So who the fuck are you to say what you're saying about them?

I am presenting a possible scenario for andre dropping out, you were openly critizing someones skills, big ass difference.

Now I know you're at least half downs. Because I said he's all marketing, and I complemented his guard retention, that is now me not saying he's all marketing?

is he all marketing or not??? hes got a sick guard, ok.. what part of him is all marketing? his leg attacks? what?

I see why no one takes you seriously. I think I'm done here with you lol.

good, when you can formulate a better analogy than "Shaub is elite because he draw with cybor the same way that eddie is elite because he draw with tanquinho", come back, till then, good bye.

 

[AK Gerard]

are you dense? danaher obviously made up his mind to not associate with mike davila after mike chose to leave the team/academy. he only put a post online after the refused handshake got so much attention

I'm merely pointing out that everyone I've known in life that "calls it like they see it" are always brief and to the point. The people I've known with that kind of personality never feel a need to explain themselves, especially in so many words as Danaher used. Maybe he's an exception to the rule, but it certainly doesn't read that way to much of the BJJ community.

1. mike Davila got invited to ebi7 because he won some small no-name tourny

As you said, Davila was invited. It doesn't matter how Danaher felt about it, it was Bravo's decision. To me, it makes Danaher look like a prick that he'd tell Davila he can't go to the tournament he was invited to, regardless of who Danaher felt was more deserving. Even if Davila got the invite (as many have suggested) by lobbying on social media and name-dropping, it's not Danaher's call who Bravo can or can't invite. As much as I personally dislike it, I've come to except that self-promotion, especially on social media, is becoming the way of the world today. It's been a tactic of MMA fighters for years now, anyone thinking it won't cross into BJJ is either delusional or hopelessly holding onto the past (not to say I think self-promotion in BJJ is anything new, just that with social media it's gone to a whole new level).

 

[randomg1t]

Have you actually watch any EBI, you are talking as you havent not, you dont go 3 rounds, you go 10 minutes, then you go to 3 rounds OT. I think you havent otherways wouldnt be here writing this



it really seems you have not watch a single ebi, if you havent do it, then get your conclusions. No one has beaten a far superior grappler by escaping faster. The closest might have been Gordon ryan beating yuri simoes, in that match, yuri controlled gordon for most of the regulation time, but Gordon subed him in the OT.

sorry, brain fart. do nothing for 10 minutes.

gordon subbing him in the OT where they put him on his back... which is exactly my point.

here we go again with adding escaping time...ITS THE LAST RESORT, how hard is this for you to understand? , if you take this incentive away, people is going to do jack shit and stay defending for ever, you need to make the guy defending want to escape, other ways it will take for ever.

I have watched every single EBI, and very very very few matches were decided on escaping time. BEsides the one with joe soto soting the game (which was the reason why stalling cards were added) I dont remember a single ebi that had more than 1 or 2 matches at most in the whole card decedided by escaping time.

people do jack shit and defend forever, during the regulation time. joe soto is an excellent example.

my point is this. if you want sub only, you do sub only. don't do fucking sub only, but then fastest escape defines the winner. why not fastest guard pass? why not fastest takedown? it's an arbitrary method of scoring that is no different than other point systems, except it randomly puts you into a finishing position, for whatever reason.

by the way, the rules are sub only, TIME limit, no one ever said no time limit.

they are not sub only. you can win by escaping faster than your opponent, so you win without subbing anyone. that, by definition, means it's not sub only.

the point is, submission only really only works when you have no time limits. other than that, it's either a shitton of draws, or points disguised as fast escapes. fastest escapes are points.

 

[BJJ_Rage]

sorry, brain fart. do nothing for 10 minutes.

gordon subbing him in the OT where they put him on his back... which is exactly my point.


people do jack shit and defend forever, during the regulation time. joe soto is an excellent example.

that why they introduced stalling cards, But yeah in someway you can play the game, it is quite clear you can have that strategy, you aint getting pay a dime though...

my point is this. if you want sub only, you do sub only. don't do fucking sub only, but then fastest escape defines the winner. why not fastest guard pass? why not fastest takedown? it's an arbitrary method of scoring that is no different than other point systems, except it randomly puts you into a finishing position, for whatever reason.

dude, seriously? because when you are trying to sub someone the other guy is trying to escape, is really that simple. It would be ideal to have unlimited rounds, yes it would, but I dont think they can do that since its on tv.

they are not sub only. you can win by escaping faster than your opponent, so you win without subbing anyone. that, by definition, means it's not sub only.

the point is, submission only really only works when you have no time limits. other than that, it's either a shitton of draws, or points disguised as fast escapes. fastest escapes are points.

not really, since EBI is delivering exiting cards, I guess if you want to get into technicalities you could say its not sub only, its a matter of semantics, you can call it no points in regulation only sub + OT, it wont change the fact that you can only win by submission in the regulation time, and you can still win by submission in the OT.

Here is what EBI 5 - 7 looked like.

EBI 5 : 15 matches, 2 OT / 1 fastest escape.
out of 15 matches, 6% ended up by fastest escape method.

EBI 6 : 15 matches, 8 OT / 3 fastest escape.
out of 15 matches, 20% ended up by fastest escape method.

EBI 7: 15 matches, 7 OT / 1 fastest escape.
out of 15 matches, 6% ended up by fastest escape method.

You would've had a point is most matches end up by fastest escape, which as you can see, its cleary not the case.

 

[randomg1t]

dude, seriously? because when you are trying to sub someone the other guy is trying to escape, is really that simple. It would be ideal to have unlimited rounds, yes it would, but I dont think they can do that since its on tv.

that has absolutely nothing to do with what i said.

not really, since EBI is delivering exiting cards, I guess if you want to get into technicalities you could say its not sub only, its a matter of semantics, you can call it no points in regulation only sub + OT, it wont change the fact that you can only win by submission in the regulation time, and you can still win by submission in the OT.

Here is what EBI 5 - 7 looked like.

EBI 5 : 15 matches, 2 OT / 1 fastest escape.
out of 15 matches, 6% ended up by fastest escape method.

EBI 6 : 15 matches, 8 OT / 3 fastest escape.
out of 15 matches, 20% ended up by fastest escape method.

EBI 7: 15 matches, 7 OT / 1 fastest escape.
out of 15 matches, 6% ended up by fastest escape method.

You would've had a point is most matches end up by fastest escape, which as you can see, its cleary not the case.

that's like saying the ADCC rules are sub only, because there are no points in the first half of the match. oh you don't agree? semantics.

i'm not arguing how exciting the events are, i have no opinion one way or the other. i enjoyed what i saw, but mostly because i liked how cummings heelhooked the shit out of everyone.. the rest didn't interest me much. excitement has nothing to do with what i'm saying here, i commented on nothing but how silly the rules are, and how they are no different than other point-based systems, except they completely ignore the significance of establishing dominant positions, which goes against the principles of pretty much every grappling art.

and lol @ counting OT subs. wow, so exciting! you put guys in armbars / have their back taken, and suddenly you get all these submissions! these rules are awesome, eddie should start a tournament that's completely submission only, but fuck grappling altogether, every match gets started with back control / spiderweb! then we'll really know who the best grapplers are.

 

[BJJ_Rage]

that has absolutely nothing to do with what i said.

How come not, you asked whay not define the winner with a guard pass, I just explained to you why escaping is the last resort.

that's like saying the ADCC rules are sub only, because there are no points in the first half of the match. oh you don't agree? semantics.

Not really anymore, before the last one, yes, but with new rules, you can get - 1 for pulling guard even when there's no points, but overall I guess you could make a valid analogy.

i'm not arguing how exciting the events are, i have no opinion one way or the other. i enjoyed what i saw, but mostly because i liked how cummings heelhooked the shit out of everyone.. the rest didn't interest me much. excitement has nothing to do with what i'm saying here, i commented on nothing but how silly the rules are, and how they are no different than other point-based systems, except they completely ignore the significance of establishing dominant positions, which goes against the principles of pretty much every grappling art.

Well that's the whole point, excitement for a change, the rules make the matches exiting, is that simple. Any sub only match ignores positional control, not only ebi, I haven't seen you crap on Polaris rules, pretty much the same, the only difference, you get draws and in ebi you don't.

and lol @ counting OT subs. wow, so exciting! you put guys in armbars / have their back taken, and suddenly you get all these submissions! these rules are awesome, eddie should start a tournament that's completely submission only, but fuck grappling altogether, every match gets started with back control / spiderweb! then we'll really know who the best grapplers are.

Lol?, you've been crapping in OT rules for quite some time and if you look at your posts you keep bringing the escaping time over and over again, eventhough while it's the last resort, I just showed to you that most matches do not get to that stage, yet now you totally dismissed what you've been crapping for pages? and I didnt count OT subs as subs, where do you get this from? I merely counted the ammout of matches that ended up via escaping time, which again, seems to be the biggest beef you have with the rules.

Do you really think the best all around grappler could be decided By who can almost get something done? It's the same bullshit every event has its rules and the winner of the match under those rules is the best grappler UNDER those rules at that time, being able to win on advantages or judges decision does not make someone a "better" grappler either. Winning on OT doesn't either, but it's a tournament and you need to get a winner, and since neither method is going to decide who's the best grappler really is, I rather have something exiting happening that advantages or judges decisions and in adcc, penalties even worst.

I think your problem is wanting to generalize everything, IBJJF winners are the best grapplers for IBJJF rules, which are heavy on control and passing, and thats fine. Sub only rules are different though, could they be the best? yeah probably, they have to compete to find that out though. Would I put my money on Andre Lepri Lo and others top IBJJF top guys joining sub only rules torunamets? probably.

 

[ChainFlow]

No, I'm sorry you're taking it that way but I've never said that or even implied that. On a technicality heel hooks aren't actually a part of BJJ, they're part of submission grappling...

Umm...

 

[mgbyrnc]

As you said, Davila was invited. It doesn't matter how Danaher felt about it, it was Bravo's decision. To me, it makes Danaher look like a prick that he'd tell Davila he can't go to the tournament he was invited to, regardless of who Danaher felt was more deserving. Even if Davila got the invite (as many have suggested) by lobbying on social media and name-dropping, it's not Danaher's call who Bravo can or can't invite. As much as I personally dislike it, I've come to except that self-promotion, especially on social media, is becoming the way of the world today. It's been a tactic of MMA fighters for years now, anyone thinking it won't cross into BJJ is either delusional or hopelessly holding onto the past (not to say I think self-promotion in BJJ is anything new, just that with social media it's gone to a whole new level).

So you would go against your instructor's wishes and compete in a tournament that he didn't feel you were ready for?

 

[nodferatu]

Umm...

Well fuck me running...

 

[anaconda]

Umm...

Maybe he was demonstrating what NOT to do.

 

[mataleaos]

So you would go against your instructor's wishes and compete in a tournament that he didn't feel you were ready for?

If the guy wasn't my instructor, which is the case here, no I wouldn't care what he has to say. If I was 34 years old in a sport where people don't make shit for money. And I earned my way into EBI by subbing everyone in regulation at a good tournament that used EBI rules, because Eddie Bravo liked my performance. And then my teacher's teacher tells me I don't deserve to be there because I get tapped out by Eddie Cummings in the gym, then yes I would say go to hell and do what Davila did.

Honestly, answer me this. Eddie Bravo, a legend in the sport, invites someone to compete in his tournament. How many coaches would not support that? I think 99% of the coaches out there would be happy as hell and would support the invitee. That's the environment I would want to train in.

And again. The idea that Davila took another person's spot is wrong. Even Gordon Ryan confirmed this on a recent podcast and said that from now on at EBI, Eddie Bravo is only allowing one Renzo affiliated grappler is allowed per event, due to the the high probability of worked matches (Tonon versus Cummings for example). So at EBI 8 don't expect to see anyone besides Gordon Ryan.

 

[AK Gerard]

So you would go against your instructor's wishes and compete in a tournament that he didn't feel you were ready for?

Pretty much what mataleaos said. As much as I respect my instructor, life is too short for me to pass up a great opportunity because my instructor feels I'm not ready (and in reality only says that because he'd rather send someone else from the team).

 

[NSchoke]

Again glad to see Danaher setting and enforcing standards for his program. There's a reason so many high level athletes train there, including Stevens and Harrison.

Here's a recent quote from Harrison
"It's just so different from judo... After a match in judo, you shake a person's hand or you give them a hug. You bow to them to show respect. MMA isn't like that. I don't know if I'm cut out for a world where you get fights based on how pretty you are and how much you talk, not necessarily what you've done in the ring."

The very best want to be judged on merit. Hopefully Danaher stays the course and the people who talk so bad against him open their own academies where the best social media promoters get the push. It'd be interesting to see the results if everyone put their money where their mouth is.