Why is WS4SB more complex than 531?

[oyaji poi]

Thread title says it all - what's the problem here?

I train alone, always have, and got most of my training knowledge from the good ol' S&P/C. Personally I find 531 a bit more complex - not the base programme, that can be sorted out with an Excel sheet.

But the assistance work is pretty well open to interpretation - which is why BBB is the most popular template. Then you add in all the Beyond elements - Joker Sets, first set last etc etc and there seems to be no real rhyme or reason for choosing additions. BBB is easy to justify - the person wants to be bigger. Other than that the instructions are quite vague, almost arbitrary.

Feeling strong that day - do Joker sets, or not. Push the final set for AMAP, or not. One article Jim says to leave nothing on the platform, the next he's saying to take it easy.


WS4SB to me is far simpler and has been unchanged for 10 years now. The assistance choices are set out in a template with options to choose from (is this the hard part? I hope not). For example after ME Bench you do a horizontal pull (DB row, BB row, seated row) for 3-4 sets of 10-12 reps. And so on for every exercise and movement pattern. If you want to do more conditioning there is a template for that.

The loading is easy - go for a 3-5RM for a few weeks until you can't, then do something else.

Is that the hard part? Choosing what else to do? Identifying your own weaknesses? Creating your own goals? Admitting you are a closeted bodybuilder?


I wouldn't put a total noob onto the programme but anyone who has done GSLP or SS should be able to jump right into WS4SB and might even appreciate the change of pace from grinding out sets of 5 to having one top set and a bunch of accessory and conditioning stuff (while still getting stronger).

Thoughts?

 

[UltraMaggot]

WS4SB is more of an off season program for sports people and skinny white boys to gain strength/size/conditioning. I found i made more size gains on it compared to Madcows and i also enjoyed it more. Being able to choose lifts to work on your weaknesses or just choosing cool exercises was nice.

I did Madcows instead of of 5/3/1 as it looked more simple and had a bit more variation. I think 5/3/1 is pure power lifting/strength oritentated, definately compared to WS4SB.

Not really sure what your question is exactly.

 

[thugpoet]

Apparently he thinks ws4sb is easier than 531

But he has heard 531 is easier than ws4b. He wants to know what makes that so.

My answer?

Its all relative there both simple to me.it really depends on your goals.

 

[Tosa]

It might depend on what you mean by complex. Are we talking about complex in terms of the kind of periodization? How many possible variations the program has? The knowledge and experience necessary to correctly run the program? Variation in the main lifts?

I'd say that asking someone who may not have a lot of training experience or knowledge to be able to choose different exercises all the time, and have it result in some kind of reasonable progress, makes it more complex. Also, more complex in that you're varying the main lifts.

But more or less complex isn't good or bad, and both programs are pretty simple. It's which one is most appropriate, and what are the potential issues. With 5/3/1 it's how to add in enough volume at reasonable intensity ranges that's usually the issue. With WS4SB, I'd think the issue is being able to intelligently choose different exercises that aren't too different, so that you're still building on what you've done previously.

 

[Ice 9 Cobra]

I think that's more a reflection of the authors of the program. Defranco messed with his program two times after he wrote it, whereas Jim seems to be making constant changes and additions

 

[oyaji poi]

I Googled around a bit and one of the most frequent comments people have in just about any thread on it is that WS4SB is complex. Or complicated.

This applies to F13 as well, I've mentioned it a few times in the past weeks and invariably someone suggests 531 as being better because it is less complicated than WS4SB.

 

[oyaji poi]

1. It might depend on what you mean by complex. Are we talking about complex in terms of the kind of periodization? How many possible variations the program has? The knowledge and experience necessary to correctly run the program? Variation in the main lifts?

2. I'd say that asking someone who may not have a lot of training experience or knowledge to be able to choose different exercises all the time, and have it result in some kind of reasonable progress, makes it more complex. Also, more complex in that you're varying the main lifts.

3. But more or less complex isn't good or bad, and both programs are pretty simple. It's which one is most appropriate, and what are the potential issues. With 5/3/1 it's how to add in enough volume at reasonable intensity ranges that's usually the issue. With WS4SB, I'd think the issue is being able to intelligently choose different exercises that aren't too different, so that you're still building on what you've done previously.

1. I used the word complex because that is how many people described it in relation to 531, or less often to some other programme. For me I found the 531 variations difficult to understand. They look great but when and why I should use them I couldn't explain.

2. Great point. Just like self-education with books, self-training could lead a person to doing what they like instead of what they need to in order to reach a goal. I still think it makes WS4SB less complex than 531 because DeFranco gives pretty straightforward guidelines and very few choices - but more complex than say Madcow or TM. Because of the 531 Excel sheet it's pretty hard to mess up progression unless you start too high. With WS4SB it might be a few weeks or months before you realize a particular lift has stalled. No bueno.

3. Similar to #2 and for me understanding how to programme volume was the hardest part in transitioning from GSLP to an intermediate programme. So it was good to have a clear template/menu to pick from. That being said, it took a few months to get the hang of volume and rotating lifts in/out.

What I just realized is that 531 makes programming the ME lift easy but volume a bit tricky. Conversely, WS4SB makes the volume part easy but the ME a bit tricky. Transitioning from GSLP though made the ME part easy because I was already used to pushing for a rep max.

 

[Tosa]

I don't even bother trying to keep track of all the 5/3/1 variations. It's not something I need to know.

Personally, I wouldn't worry too much about comparing these two particular programs. 5/3/1 is good if someone needs something simple, and doesn't have a lot of time in the gym. WS4SB is good if someone really wants a tonne of variation and bro stuff. And then there's any number of programs to fit other needs, all of which can be modified if necessary.

 

[NurseKnuckles]

Both have their benefits, both have their limits. My advice is to pick something and actually put the effort and work into it.

 

[j123]

My guess for why ws4sb was considered more complex was because of the assistance exercise and cycling them

 

[jrams]

5/3/1 at its basic is as simple as it gets. Do a week of 5's, do a week of 3's, do a week of 5/3/1, add 5/10lbs and repeat. That's why people think it is simple. All of the variations just seem to be tricks to get more volume.

 

[Rexdale]

When I first started reading about proper lifting programs I found WS4SB confusing because they didn't tell me which lifts to do e.g.

http://www.defrancostraining.com/articles/38-articles/60-westside-for-skinny-bastards-part1.html

A. MAX-EFFORT LIFT - Work up to a max set of 3-5 reps.

Choose one of the following exercises:

Thick bar or regular barbell bench press
Barbell floor press
Rack lockouts
Board presses
Incline barbell bench
Close-grip bench press (index finger on smooth part of bar)
Decline bench press
Weighted dips

And it's like this for every lift so as a beginner I had no idea what to choose. 5/3/1 is similar in the way that it deals with assistance there are more examples that you can choose from (Boring but Big, Triumvirate etc)

 

[selfcritical]

My guess for why ws4sb was considered more complex was because of the assistance exercise and cycling them

That and trying for a 3rm rather than percentages involves a lot more soft skills and experience with lifting. 5/3/1 is a "Do this!" program, with modular options. Especially the base program. You can't just print out a spreadsheet for WS4SB

 

[NurseKnuckles]

Westside is missing curl variations. That's my take home on the suject

 

[Obscure Terror]

Westside is missing curl variations. That's my take home on the suject

Obviously an unbalanced programme then. I mean if you aren't curling, you aren't training right?!