Why is it considered "moral" to be communist?

[IDL]

That's exactly what Marx thought! And it's a necessary condition for his theory to work. He thought when society changes, people will stop acting like, well, humans, and will stop being selfish. Only then can we have society as he envisioned it. Adam Smith went the other way, he assumed everything we do is out of self-interest.

I'm not really going to debate you on whether human nature is malleable or not, because, well, it's an endless topic. But ask yourself, how do you know it's in large part a product of your environment? Were you being scientific when you gathered data to reach that conclusion? That is, were you only looking for data that supports that conclusion, or were you trying to to falsify your hypothesis?

From a personal perspective it is not easy to separate the nurture and nature component, but I think it can be determined from looking at large datasets and viewing patterns that emerge. Large datasets meaning cross-cultural and throughout history. An emergent nature of human beings becomes visible I think.

So human behavior is malleable to an extent, similar to any other animal (trainers can mold animal behavior) but there is also an underlying constant that doesn't really go away, and if a person becomes conditioned to be very far apart from his own nature, then I think psychological problems would rise.

And in any case, the only way to engineer an entire society to mold their thoughts and behaviors is a totalitarian one with control of media and education. Children would have to be indoctrinated starting at a young age, and the family unit would need to be disbanded (Marxists have talked about this problem, where parents have different interests for their children than the state and 'corrupt' the children with ideas that are not ideologically pure, so to speak). It would also require elimination of all other value systems (religions, ideologies, etc)

So, sort of like what was depicted in Huxley's Brave New World, where the state raised the children, there are no families, and each citizen is fully indoctrinated.

 

[RubberGuard5]

From a personal perspective it is not easy to separate the nurture and nature component, but I think it can be determined from looking at large datasets and viewing patterns that emerge. Large datasets meaning cross-cultural and throughout history. An emergent nature of human beings becomes visible I think.

So human behavior is malleable to an extent, similar to any other animal (trainers can mold animal behavior) but there is also an underlying constant that doesn't really go away, and if a person becomes conditioned to be very far apart from his own nature, then I think psychological problems would rise.

And in any case, the only way to engineer an entire society to mold their thoughts and behaviors is a totalitarian one with control of media and education. Children would have to be indoctrinated starting at a young age, and the family unit would need to be disbanded (Marxists have talked about this problem, where parents have different interests for their children than the state and 'corrupt' the children with ideas that are not ideologically pure, so to speak). It would also require elimination of all other value systems (religions, ideologies, etc)

So, sort of like what was depicted in Huxley's Brave New World, where the state raised the children, there are no families, and each citizen is fully indoctrinated.

It can't be done, even with education. We empirically know that there are human universals. Coalitional thinking for example. Loads of research done on that topic. Humans are tribal by nature, but it doesn't mean we are destined to kill each other in racial or ethnic wars. We can work on the manifestation of tribalism. What's in question is how successful can we be and how permanent will the effects be? In Yugoslavia they tried to create brotherhood and unity for 50 years. It worked... for some time. And in some people. I'm pessimistic of the possibilities of changing human nature in the manner necessary for communism to work.

 

[IDL]

It can't be done, even with education. We empirically know that there are human universals. Coalitional thinking for example. Loads of research done on that topic. Humans are tribal by nature, but it doesn't mean we are destined to kill each other in racial or ethnic wars. We can work on the manifestation of tribalism. What's in question is how successful can we be and how permanent will the effects be? In Yugoslavia they tried to create brotherhood and unity for 50 years. It worked... for some time. And in some people. I'm pessimistic of the possibilities of changing human nature in the manner necessary for communism to work.

I generally agree, but I do think it is at least in theory possible. It would require a dystopian nightmare situation for it to work though.

It could be taken to an even further extreme than Brave New World, with the integration of human-machine interfaces.

It is basically a problem of 'how do we kill the human in humans'

And of course the sole purpose for doing so would be to create a system of efficient slavery, so no thanks.

 

[Fawlty]

It seems like the most obvious objection to communism is rarely said- it's fucking boring. It isn't sexy. Nothing dries up a serviceable pussy like perpetual austerity. We have to wheel and deal a little, literally for fuck's sake. It's not that it's immoral or even that it's wrong in the end. It's that communism is sitting around all set-jawed and tight-lipped for the greater good, sublimating every urge that got us where we are. Jesus Christ. Lenny Bruce said communism doesn't work because the government is like having one phone company forever- "It doesn't cook, man."

 

[Deleted member 491001]

And now this from California:

SACRAMENTO, Calif. (AP) -- Being a communist would no longer be a fireable offense for California government employees under a bill passed by the state Assembly.

Lawmakers narrowly approved the bill Monday. It would repeal part of a law enacted during the Red Scare of the 1940s and `50s when fear that communists were trying to infiltrate and overthrow the U.S. government was rampant. The bill now goes to the Senate.

http://www.ktvu.com/news/253403271-story

 

[Greoric]

And now this from California:

SACRAMENTO, Calif. (AP) -- Being a communist would no longer be a fireable offense for California government employees under a bill passed by the state Assembly.

Lawmakers narrowly approved the bill Monday. It would repeal part of a law enacted during the Red Scare of the 1940s and `50s when fear that communists were trying to infiltrate and overthrow the U.S. government was rampant. The bill now goes to the Senate.

http://www.ktvu.com/news/253403271-story

Great decision. Now we'll know who more of the communists are in government.

 

[Thurisaz]

Stop being such an antisemetic pussy all the time.

I'm neither of those things.

Just say what you really think instead of being coy about it.

That's precisely what I did.

 

[HomerThompson]

I'm neither of those things.


That's precisely what I did.

(((OK)))