Why doesn't 10th Planet do well at NoGi Worlds?

NateTx4112 said:
Yeah your wrestling (and sexiness) was on a different level. You mauled some of them guys.
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Thanks, although I did get the comment "wow, you are a strong wrestler" comment about 5 times.

It pisses me off when people say that, especially when they pull guard, I pass, then submit them with moves I have drilled thousands of times, and that somehow translates into me winning because I am strong, and I wrestled them.
 
Dirty Holt said:
Thanks, although I did get the comment "wow, you are a strong wrestler" comment about 5 times.

It pisses me off when people say that, especially when they pull guard, I pass, then submit them with moves I have drilled thousands of times, and that somehow translates into me winning because I am strong, and I wrestled them.
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It makes it more acceptible to lose to you.Because in their mind your stronger and a wrestler but they have more BJJ skill.
 
That single you snatched up on the Asian guy in the GB rash guard was lightning quick. You were impressive out there.
 
To me, there are several broad misconceptions about 10th planet, but also some undeniable truths that even their members must admit.

As for the misconceptions, the idea that the style is ineffective, or a fluke, or whatever, is pretty much ridiculous. At its worst it is a highly creative and unorthodox style that even the most experienced practitioners must deal with. At its best, it will tie you in knots and suck the life out of you.

However, I think 10th planet members and supporters also need to understand why so many fire animosity in their direction.

The first, and probably biggest, reason is the 10th Planet "lifestyle." In addition to his jiu-jitsu teaching, Eddie Bravo seems to strongly encourage, if not literally teach, a sort of mystical metrosexual culture. There's the weed smoking, the trip hop, the slang, the youtube videos, the goofy in-match antics. Not every member adopts this culture, but its overtones if not literal manifestations can be found at any 10th planet gym, and certainly among any online 10th Planet presence. For outsiders, it's easy to find this culture grating, arrogant, and even douchey. And when you add in all the secret code names, the uniforms, the guarding of techniques, the frequent invoking of terms like "revolution," it's not hard to project 10th Planet as a cult.

In this same way, though, I think it's important to understand that Eddie Bravo is a promoter just as much as he is a jiu-jitsu practitioner, and so the lifestyle marketing is a big part of his success. Despite all the attention given to the Royler match, I would suspect that the great majority of new 10th Planet students have no idea about the existence of this match, nor the significance of it (and certainly not Eddie's loss to Leo Veira in the next round). In reality, Eddie is gaining students and affiliations through the aggressive promotion of his system and lifestyle, rather than through some common knowledge that he's the baddest of the bad.

As for the jiu-jitsu itself, once you peel away the outside jealousy and intimidation, I think there a few objective trends we can see developing. The most obvious is that pure 10th Planet players often give up position (and points) in order to work their game. As a result, when 10th planet guys are defeated in competition it is usually by positional, technical guard-passers, especially when the rules (i.e. points) encourage it. They are much more effective, even dominant against other guard players and against guys who are used to just smashing their way through guards.

In addition, the unconventional nature of the 10th Planet system makes it highly effective against opponents (often lower belts, but not always) who do not have much experience training against it. This success can, however, create a difficult situation for a 10th Planet instructor, as a student may, say, win a blue belt tournament via Purple or Brown level rubber guard, but might have lesser-developed skills in other areas. Do you promote the blue belt to purple, even though he doesn't have an overall purple game, or do you leave him at blue to keep dominating against guys who can't deal with rubber guard?

Another big issue I see is with the idea that 10th Planet is somehow "made for MMA." Though I've often heard this defense, I am skeptical that Eddie Bravo actually meant it the way it's been taken. From my perspective, the passive-aggressive nature of 10th Planet makes it highly unsuited to MMA, and, despite the positional concessions, highly effective in a sport jiu-jitsu context. From what I've seen, 10th Planet seems designed to counter many of the stale, you-do-this-and-I'll-do-that conventions of the traditional Gracie Gi style. The twister, in particular, is so effective because most of its setups are born out of transitions that would otherwise seem favorable to a Gracie jiu-jitsu guy. Rubber guard has been effective in MMA at times, but even then it is effective for many of the same reasons it is effective in sport BJJ, namely that it can swallow up somebody who's not familiar with it. By and large, a pure 10th Planet guy will have trouble with the explosiveness and ferocity of modern MMA, and will get straight-up obliterated if he imposes a literal Eddie Bravo, half-guard pulling attack. To my eyes, a sweep and submit system like Marcelo Garcia's seems much more "made for MMA."

So those are just a few observations from an objective guy like me. I'm not a 10th Planet student, but I have trained at 10th Planet SF a few times, and know a few of their members. I don't know exactly why 10th Planet garners such a strong emotional reaction in people, but whatever it is they must be doing something right. Personally, I'd like to see them act a little less arrogant, and become a little more open to others in the jiu-jitsu community, but it's not for me to decide and they seem to be doing pretty well on their own.
 
solid, objective post. I think I fall right into the category you are talking about. I like Eddie Bravo, and I think that it is cool to be a stylist at anything e.g., guitar, cooking, jiu jitsu included. But I am turned off by the flashy clothes and weird trance music.
 
And there we have it folks, 190 replies before this turd of a thread devolved into criticising grammar.
 
Its interesting that no one has mentioned Vinny when they talk about 10th planet not having world class competitors.

Vinny if you are reading this, can you tell us why you chose to train at 10th planet.
 
ozyabbas said:
Its interesting that no one has mentioned Vinny when they talk about 10th planet not having world class competitors.

Vinny if you are reading this, can you tell us why you chose to train at 10th planet.
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Stop trolling, Vinny was a world champ at brown belt under Royler Gracie before he ever hooked up with Eddie Bravo. Hell, Vinny's trained with Erik Paulson for a while, how dumb would it be to claim he's a Catch guy winning world championships in BJJ or Sub Grappling? Utterly dumb.

This is clearly about guys with no previous BJJ experience going from White to Black in the 10thPlanet system.
 
KJGould said:
Stop trolling, Vinny was a world champ at brown belt under Royler Gracie before he ever hooked up with Eddie Bravo. Hell, Vinny's trained with Erik Paulson for a while, how dumb would it be to claim he's a Catch guy winning world championships in BJJ or Sub Grappling? Utterly dumb.

This is clearly about guys with no previous BJJ experience going from White to Black in the 10thPlanet system.
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The Vinny thing is, I think, exactly at the crux of the 10th Planet controversy. Eddie decides to "award" a "10th Planet Black Belt" to a guy who is already a world-class black belt under one of the most accomplished trainers in the world, as though he learned a whole different martial art by training with him. That, to me, has nothing to do with the effectiveness of the techniques, and more to self-promotion to a degree some would call arrogant.
 
trustdoesntrust said:
As for the jiu-jitsu itself, once you peel away the outside jealousy and intimidation,

Please :rolleyes:

I think there a few objective trends we can see developing. The most obvious is that pure 10th Planet players often give up position (and points) in order to work their game. As a result, when 10th planet guys are defeated in competition it is usually by positional, technical guard-passers, especially when the rules (i.e. points) encourage it.

Read: 10th Planet players get their guard passed a lot.

They are much more effective, even dominant against other guard players and against guys who are used to just smashing their way through guards.

Uhhhh.... I don't know if you saw the whole thread, watch this again.
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First of all, I hate this annoying fucking shibboleth that there is some battle between "mainstream BJJ and 10th Planet." This canard that stubborn Brazilians set in their ways are clashing with the innovation of 10th Planet. It's brilliant fucking marketing by Eddie, and he talks about it all the time, but it just not true. I'm not saying mainstream Brazilian Jiujitsu is winning by a landslide. It's worse than that, mainstream Brazilian Jiujitsu doesn't even acknowledge 10th Planet's participation. They aren't aligned against 10th Planet, for the most part they are indifferent to their existence.

I once asked one of the top Americans, who has spent an incredible amount of time in Brazil, what he thought about Eddie's top guys: Bollinger, Epstein, Prokopos. He didn't respond with a sneer or disdain with each name. He just looked at me blankly, because he has no idea who the fuck these people are. And rightly so, they are nowhere near the top of any competitive circle in jiujitsu. They are of no concern. People just know Eddie because of the Royler win and because he talks about this huge conflict between him and others. But there are no "haters," he's not even made a mark enough to produce haters. He is largely ignored.

Next, 10th Planet players get their guards passed because their guards are terrible, not because they're "submission oriented" or whatever stupid excuses you want to make for them. Bill Cooper lost his first match at Nogi Worlds this year because he doesn't care about points. At one point he was butt-scooting backwards into his opponent as his opponent RAN AWAY because he had the lead. Denny Prokopos lost his first match at the Ultimate Absolute because he got his guard passed more times than I have gotten my guard passed this month. At one point he got CARTWHEEL PASSED INTO MOUNT.

And they are EVEN WORSE on top. They have no idea how to deal with distance. Eddie himself has no guard passing AT ALL. If he doesn't sweep directly to side control, he PULLS GUARD AGAIN. He ADMITS THIS.

Please, this has to stop, just stay in your stupid little cult. And let the big boys do the jiujitsu. Stop pretending you're even in the discussion. It's worse than that, 10th Planet is the tagalong kid of jiujitsu. It wants to be included so badly it will put itself in opposition to everything else just to be noticed.
 
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