My post my indeed unclear, I reread it and... ok
Long story short, BJ Penn's fans very often say he's one of the greats because of stuff he "almost did", people he almost beat, while you could argue that he has just as many (or even more) fights that he "almost lost"...
Like, the majority draw against Jon Fitch. I recently made a big post about that one, and IMHO Penn is lucky that only one judge gave it to Fitch, and the other 2 scored it a draw.
One could also argue that he was also lucky that Herb Dean didn't stop the fight in the third, it was the kind of sequence where not many people would have complained had it been stopped.
So if we prop Penn up for fights he arguably won (something most people ITT are doing), it's only fair to knock him down for fights he arguable lost/drew.
Like how Penn gets max cred for beating Hughes, but zero blowback for losing to him.
But hey, some of my favorite fighters also have spotty records (Sakuraba is my all-times favorite fighter, and there was a time where I'd only watch the UFC when Randy Couture was on), and I understand why one would want to put those fights in perspective.
Still, from an outsider perspective, it can start to look like a bunch of excuses after a while when it's for every single fight, and no one likes an excuse maker.
Back then, we were used to giving the smaller fighter the win if the fight was close, since it was one of the PRIDE criteria for a decision, and PRIDE FC was the dominant org for a long time.
With that in mind, I understand why some fans from that era would score some of Penn's fights even if he lost by today's standards (the first GSP fight is a good example)
[and once again it was before GSP having paper skin was common knowledge... he looked all beat up after the Nick Diaz and Carlos Condit fights too, and there is no doubt he won those... plus there's the whole eyepoke situation, but I've already said enough about that]
It's a concept that it alien to most newer fans, which is why in every "Guy Mezger respect" thread, lots of people state that there is no way Saku even got a draw, he clearly lost!
Yeah, and Penn (IMO) clearly lost against GSP, but back then it was normal to give points to the smaller dude. Nowadays it's "shoulda stayed in your lane manlet, you get no points for trying here!!!"
On the other hand, some of Penn's fans want their cake and eat it too, claiming that BJ is a legend for fighting at WW, but that his losses there don't count because "he shouldn't even have been fighting at WW!"
That would be like if, as a Sakuraba fanboy, I'd try to remove his losses to Lil' Nog and Cro Cop because "he had no business fighting in those weight-classes"... he still did.
So yeah, as a GSP fanboy it's in my own interest to prop Penn up as a great, since it gives St-Pierre two more wins against a "fellow great", but I have a hard time putting them in the same category.
I think I've said all I wanted to say, stuff like the Fitch & Machida fights are way too ingrained in the BJ Penn culture to try to tell to explain that they're not that great
Cheers for taking the time to talk to me, I respect your POV, and who knows, had I been on the other side of history instead of being a fan of Jens Pulver & GSP, I might sing a different song
