Why does 20 rep squats work?

[Roy]

I do not question that 20 rep squats is an effective program because I have read the logs of several people on this board who have tried them with success. However, it seems that it is normally understood that the optimal rep range for building strength is between like 3 and 5, and that if you can do more than 10 or 12 reps, the resistance is not sufficient to build improved strength. Why are squats an exception? You never see a comparable "20 rep bench" or something like that.

 

[Henry Swanson]

I was under the impression that the original 20 Rep Squats program was geared more towards hypertrophy as opposed to building pure strength.

 

[Real_Mckenzie]

I'll give a shot at answering this:

I believe its the fact that the bar is resting on your back so your spine is loaded throughout the movement. I've always thought 20 rep squats worked best with a "rest pause" style and a weight closer to your normal 10 rep max but done for 20 by resting longer between reps especially towards the end.

That way your spine is loaded for the entire time and you can use a weight heavier than any other exercises for 20 reps.

 

[SteveX]

I was under the impression that the original 20 Rep Squats program was geared more towards hypertrophy as opposed to building pure strength.

This...there is definitely increased strength, but that probably comes about through the increased bodyweight. Remember the original program called for GOMAD on top of eating until you puke.

 

[Urban]

I like 20 rep squats. When I was doing the program (and I've entertained the idea of doing it again recently), ALL of my strongman performances improved (log press, yoke carry, farmers walks, etc). Mind you I only made it up to 240lbs x 20 reps before serious concerns over my form emerged and made me take a step back and re-assess things. It's something I'd like to take on again some day soon, and I've since become a fan of high rep back squats in general (I use them as assistance after my front squats now).

Why does it work? It probably has something to do with the fact that you can "rest" in the top position. you can't really do that with any other lift. With 20 rep deads you could do by letting go of the bar, but then you're under NO load whatsoever, 20 rep bench might be doable with pin presses, but aside from eliminated the stretch reflex in its entirety, you're again under NO load each rep. I liken 20 rep squats to 20 2-3 second intervals. You sprint (squat) take 2-3 times as long to recover with lighter work (standing there under load), and repeat 19 more times.

It really is more about hypertrophy and work capacity than anything else, but there does seem to be something intangibly effective about high rep squats. The squatting motion is so critical to athletic development it makes sense (to me) to drill it into the athlete with repetitive practice, and the back squat is particularly suited to this goal (as opposed to other squat variations) since it does allow you a greater opportunity to "rest" in between reps and is easier to maintain good form with under fatigue (IMHO).

Dan john wrote once not to squat in sets of less than ten. While this might not be the best advice for a powerlifter, I don't think it's that far off the mark for other athletes. When I wrote him about it he said it seemed to have a tonic effect that he couldn't quite qualify, that he and his trainees felt lighter on their feet, were more explosive, and generally performed better in their other lifts when they trained like that. It may be sacrilegious in these parts, but I think back squats make a better assistance movement than a primary movement for a lot of people, and as such are better suited to higher reps. DJ also wrote that its more important for people to know how to squat than it is for them to squat heavily... more DJ insight, if you want to get faster, more explosive, and all around stronger: improve you front squat by 20lbs.

Lastly, 20 rep squats are HARD. they're a gut check, a test of your consitution. at rep 13 you start thinking about quitting and you realize you have 7 reps left. Developing the mettle to push through that in combination with what equates to "drill it and do x" for 20 reps is good training for expressing strength when you come off the program.

All I know is what I experienced, I spent 6 weeks on the 20 rep squat program without gomad, and I didn't get any weaker on anything, and got stronger on most things. can I explain it fully? no, but clearly I have my theories.

 

[Roy]

Wow thanks for the great response Urban! I am a huge fan of front squats actually, although it seems kind of against the conventional wisdom to think of back squats as assistance for front squats rather than the other way around.

 

[Steak**]

Well, the squat in milk program in the stickies works for a few reasons. You eat a shit load of food, and you add 5 pounds every time. Adding that much weight while consuming that much food, while destroying nearly all the muscles in your body 3 days a week by doing one of the greatest exercises ever, the squat, will make you stronger. Not to mention all the dips, pull ups and sit ups you do.

The super squats book has a different routine, but they still recommended drinking a lot of milk, so thats why that works.

You put on muscle mass, and that's going to get you stronger.

 

[Deltron 3030]

I was under the impression that the original 20 Rep Squats program was geared more towards hypertrophy as opposed to building pure strength.

I'm responding to this simply to tell you that I'm loving the av. Shut up, Mimsy!

 

[Pro Killer]

Nice reply Urban, How are your squats now do you still have that weird/scary hip imbalance or is it more fluid now??

I don't exactly know why 20 Rep Squats work, I guess what Urban said makes sense about always being under the presure of 300lbs is going to force you to become stronger and my opinion was like someone else said that you put on Muscle mass so that is going to make you stronger.......

20 Rep Squats is what made me decide to get a power rack, I've done 5x5 and SS before, I#ve read about 5/3/1 but 20 Rep squats when reading about seemed to be the most brutal routine I could imagine. I am by no means strong, I'm new to lifting but I attempted the Back Squats Conditioning Challenge, Used a really feeble weight of something like 65lbs and did 20 Reps, 15 Second Rest 30 Reps and had trouble walking down the stairs after!

 

[Oblivian]

I've said this about Deadlifts, and I think the same applies to Squats. A lot of people doubt their ability on these lifts. I went a very long time without ever failing a Deadlift. I just doubted my ability because the weight always felt heavy and didn't move really fast. I think a lot of people do the same thing with Squats. My theory (beyond what others have mentioned) is that 20 rep Squats really ups your confidence. It teaches you to push through and that you have more in your body than you think.

 

[Urban]

yeah man, my hips have gotten a lot better. on the 12th I took my latest video, and there's some tail tucking and some coming off my heels but no hip deviation.
original:


5 months later:


after a year of work:


which is why I'm considering 20 rep squats again, but things are going well enough with my routine right now, I'm not sure I want to change it. maybe in a few months.

 

[XTrainer]

Dan john wrote once not to squat in sets of less than ten. While this might not be the best advice for a powerlifter, I don't think it's that far off the mark for other athletes. When I wrote him about it he said it seemed to have a tonic effect that he couldn't quite qualify, that he and his trainees felt lighter on their feet, were more explosive, and generally performed better in their other lifts when they trained like that. It may be sacrilegious in these parts, but I think back squats make a better assistance movement than a primary movement for a lot of people, and as such are better suited to higher reps. DJ also wrote that its more important for people to know how to squat than it is for them to squat heavily... more DJ insight, if you want to get faster, more explosive, and all around stronger: improve you front squat by 20lbs.

I'm not nearly a good enough squatter to have an opinion worth anything, but I'll throw it out there anyway.

Heavy back squats and me have never gotten along. They have always lagged WAY behind my deadlift, and, in sets from 1-3 reps, my front squat only very slightly trails my back squat in raw weight (I am a much better front squatter than back squatter).

I've worked very hard to find a "happy place" with my back squats, but all that work never really amounted to much. Heavy back squats feel very awkward for me. It got to the point where I was struggling so much just to squat, the whole idea of "squatting to get stronger" kind of fell by the wayside...I was trying to squat for the sake of squatting.

With front squats, on the other hand, I don't have those problems. I front squat confidently and focus on progress...I don't get stressed out about the lift in and of itself.

With that in mind, after struggling with back squats for a long time, I've relegated them to an assistance role after deadlifts (in sets of 10, ala DJ), with heavy front squats on a different day for my primary squat strength work.

Time will tell if this approach works for me, but, bottom line, I'd rather be adding weight to my front squat than struggling futilely with my back squat.

And who knows, maybe adding 5lbs to my weekly sets of 10 will be just what I need to fix my back squat. It's been going well so far.

 

[miaou]

Regarding the original question, Urban's post was very good and thorough. The only thing I have to add, on top of the points made in this discussion so far (rest between reps without discontinuing set, mental fortitude, hypertrophy, etc.) is this:

Roy, you said "you never see a comparable 20 rep bench", well the main difference is that squats involve many more muscles to a greater degree. Sure you can make the argument that bench pressing involves the entire body (with the leg drive extending the kinetic chain), but really the degree of muscle involvement in squats is a lot greater (also the main muscles actively involved are much larger). One can even make the argument that the combination of number of muscles and degree of active involvement might be greater in the squats than deadlifts, although the number of muscles involved to any degree (big or small) is greater in DLs (I don't know if I'm explaining this well).

This difference results in two things:
1) a greater amount of "grinding reps" until the muscles are exhausted to the point of failure. Often times you experience this when going for a 5RM on the bench and overshoot your abilities, the 4th rep might be semi-smooth and the 5th rep is a fail. When squatting, after a semi-smooth rep you still have a number of reps to grind out. This is due to the greater number of larger muscles cooperating together to perform the lift (you can sort of think of this like one part of the muscle is tired then another one takes its place, although this is inaccurate).
2) the hypertrophy from 20 rep squats is distributed among a greater number of large muscles + stabilizing muscles. For the larger muscles the additional cross-sectional area is conductive to subsequent strength gains, on the other hand the main function of stabilizing muscles is exactly that: to have high endurance times against medium load.

 

[Corrosion]

Something I noticed was that squats always felt extremely awkward for me until I was almost 200lbs...then I started hitting squat PRs like crazy and felt very confident with my form.

Now that I lost some weight, I'm back to where I was. Back squats feel awkward unless they are relatively light. My theory is that there is a "build" that is more conducive to squatting, and it will be hard for you to squat unless you possess it.

 

[MASShole]

20 rep squats also trigger significant endocrine responses - increased testosterone, HGH, etc. You do get bigger by doing them due to load and increased hormone output.

I know whenever I did high rep squats I'd take my PWO shake, eat a large meal in about an hour, and then be hungry as hell about an hour after that and have to eat another meal. It's the body saying "feed me!"

 

[Oblivian]

Something I noticed was that squats always felt extremely awkward for me until I was almost 200lbs...then I started hitting squat PRs like crazy and felt very confident with my form.

Now that I lost some weight, I'm back to where I was. Back squats feel awkward unless they are relatively light. My theory is that there is a "build" that is more conducive to squatting, and it will be hard for you to squat unless you possess it.

Were you squatting more (not weight, volume + times per week) when you were bulking though? I had a ton of gains when I was bulking and definitely felt more comfortable squatting, but I always attributed it to spending more time squatting. I didn't squat much when I was dropping all of that bulk weight, and I did feel uncomfortable. Once I got back into it squatting 3 times a week, I'm back to feeling comfortable and I'm only weighing 172 lbs (lighter than my "normal" weight).

I used to think that I'd never feel comfortable with back squats and I just subbed in front squats, but I think it was just something I had to swallow my pride on and address it. For me, I have to devote the most time to back squats anyways, so when I was fixing my awkwardness, it felt like I was spending A TON of time on back squats. It's a bit frustrating when the weight is light, but it's just something to deal with IMO.

 

[Deleted member 87037]

I agree with everything Urban said. It helped me tremendously with intensity and mental strength when I first started doing it, and I believe form as well. I love 'em so much I'm currently doing them as an assistance after my top set of 5/3/1

 

[SteveX]

I agree with everything Urban said. It helped me tremendously with intensity and mental strength when I first started doing it, and I believe form as well. I love 'em so much I'm currently doing them as an assistance after my top set of 5/3/1

Sounds brutal, are you still doing an all out set on 5/3/1 or are you sticking to the minimum amount of reps and saving yourself for the 20-repper?

 

[Deleted member 87037]

Sounds brutal, are you still doing an all out set on 5/3/1 or are you sticking to the minimum amount of reps and saving yourself for the 20-repper?

No, no, I never save myself for an assistance. All out 5/3/1...then I usually do partial pin squats as recommend by Keith Wassung...and then I do the 20 reps. I'm just adding 5lbs every week until I can't do 20.

Example:

 

[SteveX]

^
Nice, might add these after my current wave of 5/3/1. What makes it more impressive is the fact you were able to do it with that music in the background.

Back onto the topic of the thread: With the idea that part of what makes 20 rep squats work is the fact that your under constant load, what are your guys' thoughts on a 20 repper with ohp or push press? Like the squat you're constantly under load and can rest similar to the squat between sets. Obviously it wouldn't be nearly as effective as squatting, but I'm curious as to whether or not it has any merit.