Why do traditional martial arts teach downward block against kicks?

[Deleted member 466273]

You expose a great risk of breaking your arm by employing downward block in a street fight against a kicking attacker.

My friend blocked with his elbows and it hurt as hell to connect with Why not that instead?

Why was the prevailing wisdom in the old days that kicks should be blocked with a downward block?

 

[moonwolf]

downward block is to block a front kick. the motion of the block is designed to parry the leg, not just block it with blunt force.

 

[shunyata]

Moon nailed it, the downward sweeping block is a parry counter to a front kick or teep and not appropriate against a high roundhouse.


A big part of this is that without live sparring for multiple generations, people forget what the fuck is actually being represented in a kata.

I've seen all too many people teach a movement as a punch block that was actually clearly an arm break attacking the elbow joint (that classic karate movement where right hand goes to waist line while left arm sweeps across with the fist pointing up and the elbow bent at 90 degrees). That's one of the dumbest punch blocks in combat sports history but it makes complete sense if you think the right hand has wrist control on opponent's right arm and the left arm is smashing into their arm just above the elbow as you drew their hand to your waist.

 

[Deleted member 466273]

downward block is to block a front kick. the motion of the block is designed to parry the leg, not just block it with blunt force.

But it has regardless been criticised. Why not employ a tight boxing guard? It's no fun kicking an elbow. When you do a downward block it doesn't actually hurt much to kick the blocking wrist, but it does against elbows.

 

[LEGS MAHONEY]

But it has regardless been criticised. Why not employ a tight boxing guard? It's no fun kicking an elbow. When you do a downward block it doesn't actually hurt much to kick the blocking wrist, but it does against elbows.

This downward block for a front kick/push kick is basically the same downward parry you see all the time in mt/ more full contact style kickboxing

it clearly works and has a high percentage of effectiveness as well as creates angles for you by redirecting the opponent

so whats to criticize?

 

[panamaican]

Just to add to some of the solid responses. The point of the downward looking block is to sweep/parry the attacking leg off line. If done well, it can create openings to follow up on.

Sweeping a front kick or teep off the center line can expose the opponent's side for a strike. It can off balance them if the goal is to close the distance. Attacking the striking limb has great value but it serves a different purpose than an off-balancing parry

There was a video floating around of Aldo and a French (?) kickboxer where the ickboxer was demonstrating how Also could catch a kick and then push/pull it across his body. It opened up the opponent's kicking side for attack.

 

[shinkyoku]

But it has regardless been criticised. Why not employ a tight boxing guard? It's no fun kicking an elbow. When you do a downward block it doesn't actually hurt much to kick the blocking wrist, but it does against elbows.

Why confuse guard with blocking techniques?

Knockdown karate use a close distance and use a boxing-like guard (slightly lower hands in order to protect the ribs with the elbows since you only have to worry about kicks/knees to the head, not punches). Taking kicks on the elbow is basics.
Point karate (often wrongly called traditional karate) use very long distances, and has the guard much further out, in order to deflect incoming attacks before they get close.
Classic karate does not really bother about guard, as it is about self defense. And in self defense, you do not square up with a opponent for a exchange of tactical give and take while circling each other with refined footwork. You get in, get out, get away.

Noone who knows what they are doing (sadly, many karate practitioner does not) do hard downward blocks. you use it to deflect an incoming attack, not stop it cold.'

Ofcourse you could also do a lot of other stuff with it under the old karate adage that "a punch is not always a punch, a kick is not always a kick, and a block is hardly ever a block" but that is another matter.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ylULQU-ouhU

 

[Doughbelly]

Moon nailed it, the downward sweeping block is a parry counter to a front kick or teep and not appropriate against a high roundhouse.


A big part of this is that without live sparring for multiple generations, people forget what the fuck is actually being represented in a kata.

I've seen all too many people teach a movement as a punch block that was actually clearly an arm break attacking the elbow joint (that classic karate movement where right hand goes to waist line while left arm sweeps across with the fist pointing up and the elbow bent at 90 degrees). That's one of the dumbest punch blocks in combat sports history but it makes complete sense if you think the right hand has wrist control on opponent's right arm and the left arm is smashing into their arm just above the elbow as you drew their hand to your waist.

Check out this guy at 0:50.



If you're familiar with the bunkai or application of the Chinese and Okinawan arts where Korean TKD derives many of its traditional form motions, this is clearly an arm capture into a standing hammerlock. It's obvious even when you've got any depth of training in traditional stand up grappling (jujitsu, hapkido, etc). I've had this conversation with many ITF TKD people. None of them have any idea what's going on here.

Many, if not most blocks in traditional karate forms are meant to be parries and kick catches. Taken in context of traditional forms, the followup movements make sense. All of this got lost in karate's trip across the Pacific and it's inevitable Americanization.

Of course, there's also the argument against the utility of practicing such non-obvious, "hidden" motions.

PS. I tried to google image the standing hammerlock motion and this showed up for some reason (enjoy!):

 

[Deleted member 466273]

Show me a kickboxing or freestyle bought with downward block against kicks.

Here you have the full intended applications:https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=gx1n-Gg-Du8

How many would work against an agressor?

 

[VulgarSnaps]

I just lurk over here, but this is a good tight informative thread.

I dunno why the fuck I'm complimenting posters, but whatever.

 

[Harukaze]

TS, you seem like you're on a mission to discount the downward block as altogether useless without really having an understanding that is A PARRY for front kicks and for middle roundhouses that have missed. If you've watched any K-1, stadium Muay Thai, or knockdown karate matches, you'll see it's commonly used to good effect as A PARRY. I can't search and post specific matches right now, but I highly suggest you start watching more -- you'll see it, guaranteed.

Using your arm to block kicks is a losing game in the long run: what's stronger, heavier, and thicker? Your arm or your opponent's leg? What if you miss in the block with your elbow and take it on your forearm or shoulder? Are you familiar with what happened to Jerome LeBanner when he fought Ernesto Hoost?

 

[Matsukaze]

I was always taught that you never stand and defend a front kick strait on but you should move/side step and deflect the kick.. that way it saves the forearm and the downward sweeping block is more effective in sweeping the kick away. Also shin blocking is good but it leaves you still standing in front of your opponent

 

[DoctorTaco]

I'm still hung up on karate kicks being used to attack you in teh streets