Why do MMA fans assume other MAs are useless even when done w/ full contact sparring?

Discussion in 'UFC Discussion' started by emax, Jan 2, 2015.

  1. emax

    emax Black Belt

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    Obviously, Muay Thai, boxing and American kickboxing predominate in MAM striking bases because there are sufficient numbers of trainers and coaches teaching them in a full contact and properly intense manner and have guys swinging at something besides air molecules. And that Muay Thai,kickboxing and boxing often have the upper echelons of athletes in combat sports due to the ungodly amount of money they can make relative to combat sports, and for boxing relative to pretty much any sport for the top few.

    And so when martial arts like TKD, Goju Ryu Karate,Hapkido, Krav Maga, Kyokushin, Kenpo, Kajunkenbo, Wing Chun and Shanshou are trained in passive and/or McDojo and/or "artistic" styles, they are not gonna work much at all. But why do we presume that these arts are useless relative to boxing or Muay Thai, in MMA or in a self defense or parking lot fight scenario, even when they are taught by trainers and coaches who have their fighters swinging at pads and opponents going full speed and training at the same intensity as Muay Thai guys or boxers? I mean, are you going to go to a Japanese training center and tell fighters Koykushin does not work, go to Israeli commandos and tell them Krav Maga is a joke, hit up Hong Kong and tell a group of street fighters there Wing Chun is just third rate kickboxing or to Northern China and tell that to fighters in a Shanshou studio? Oh I'm sure some guys here say they would but really?

    So where does that idea come from?
     
  2. Unicorn Princes

    Unicorn Princes Banned Banned

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    No one thinks that. The problem is that modern "TMA" dojos don't train realistically.

    You go to class 2 hours a week, never full contact spar, and spend most of your time learning how to dance by yourself and break boards. That is not what most traditional martial arts were originally about, but that's what you're going to get if you try to learn one of them today through most modern dojos. A watered down version. It's like going to a civil war re-enactment and thinking you could travel back in time and actually know what you're doing as a 1800s infantryman.

    Edit: Also most martial artists aren't elite athletes. If I knew someone IRL who was a black belt in Karate, and someone who had no training, I would pick the Martial Artist every time. But that doesn't really make that person an elite athlete. If you look at most successful fighters in the UFC they come from elite backgrounds in something, whether it's boxing, kickboxing, muay thai, wrestling etc. There really aren't enough Karate tournaments to bring out nearly as many elite Karate practitioners. Most of them are just regular guys, not someone coming from the very top level of years of competition against some of the best of sports that have millions competing in them.
     
    Last edited: Jan 2, 2015
  3. BigGucciSosa

    BigGucciSosa Red Belt

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    As a lifelong practitioner of Thugjitsu and Hood I agree
     
  4. Bearknuckle

    Bearknuckle Brown Belt

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    Because MMA fans are stupid.
     
  5. Donny White

    Donny White Brown Belt

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    So you're telling me what I'm thinking?

    Hmm. Your name must be Tito Ortiz.
     
  6. GordaoPreguico

    GordaoPreguico Red Belt

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    Do you even ufc bro?
     
  7. FishinWithFredo

    FishinWithFredo Purple Belt

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    Fuk u saying dude we're seeing more and more TaekwanDo Karate Kenpo and Sambo
     
  8. egg so skeleton

    egg so skeleton Orange Belt

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    My friend that does wing chun constantly bitches about how it's underappreciated by MMA fans/fighters in general. It's kind of annoying and I think he's exaggerating, but yeah. I believe it.
     
  9. emax

    emax Black Belt

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    If it is not, than some of the Sherdoggers are indeed the absolute best trolls in the entire world wide web, bar none.
     
  10. EndlessCritic

    EndlessCritic Gold Belt

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    Why do you assume things about an entire group of people based on a few things you've read on the internet?
     
  11. riitzni

    riitzni Silver Belt

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    It's cool TS. A lot of people never watched the early UFCs either.
     
  12. Mcrow

    Mcrow Blue Belt

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    Just to clarify, Krav Maga is generally practiced in controled contact for SOME things. Obviously you're not going to do full contact eye guages and groin kicks. However, striking and grappling are sparred frequently. Striking typically is done with gloves and head gear which isn't much different than how boxing and MMA folks practice.

    The only thing that is trained much differently in KM is the "dirty fighting" tactics because you can maim people.

    Granted, KM is being taught as a defense not for competitive fighting so they whole dymic is different. There is a pretty big difference betwenn KM and other MA or sports MA in that in KM you are training for survival not to win a fight.If kicking someone in the nuts and running will get the job done, that's what you do. If you have to break someone's arm, that's what you do but not more than you have to do to protector yourself. Where as in MMA for instance you know someone is going to stop the fight if it gets out of hand, there's no eye gouging, groin kicks, punching in the throat...ect.

    That's why I don't really compare KM with other MA's as it's purpose and motivation is totally different. KM was designed to be a highly effective means of defense (including from weapons) using whatever is at your disposal and that can be learned quickly with simple principles. So, if you take the most easily mastered and effective things away with rules the average KM master is probably not going to do great under MMA rules.

    Training in KM is so that you can stay alive if someone comes at you unarmed or with a gun or knife, not for sport. I would probably call it more of Survival Art more than a martial art.
     
  13. Paradigm

    Paradigm Gold Belt

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    is this your friend at 1:40? because frankly, his Muay Thai sucks lol:

     
  14. emax

    emax Black Belt

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    I watched the early UFCs as well. I UFC'd back then too brah. And I remember that it had sumo wrestlers and boxers who forgot one of their boxing gloves and guys who trained under con artists who told them 70s Chinese action films were legit fight documentaries. And so i was kinda separating that from those who teach full contact versions. And I remember when TKD vs MMA looked like this:

    [YT]9crtq44GaFs[/YT]
     
  15. jodyc81

    jodyc81 Orange Belt

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    I respect every art, i also feel they can all be effective in a self defense situation, BUT what the evolution of mma has showed us is that some arts are not as effective against a professional fighter and that specialising in one art you wont make it to the top, melvin manhoff is a good example and alot of the bjj guys, Ben askren has done well but yet to be tested in the ufc.
     
  16. prikoke

    prikoke Brown Belt

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    They're not useless they are just less effective.
     
  17. george dorn

    george dorn Orange Belt

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    it's because most of those have made some wrong turns within the last couple of centuries.


    for example, most japanese MAs not only sticking to the gis, but rather relying on this lapel to choke someone or that collar to throw then moving away from the gi as your experience grows.
    or judo going full retard in reducing ground fighting in competition to make competition more throw-heavy and thus more exciting.
    or karate not permitting punches to the head in competition. then again: why teach something you can't use in competition?
    or TKD in giving very little points for punches, thus making students of the art neglect punches and their defense.


    some others see themselves not as a sport, but as an actual martial art, which is not to be used for fun or competition, only for survival.
    so in krav maga, ball kicks, eye gouges etc are not only allowed but encouraged, so you have to focus on a lot more different attacks than in the aforementioned MAs, not even starting with their weaponry stuff. so, less focus on the competition-eligible stuff.
    or complex moves in wing tsun, which are pretty devastating if they work, but only if the attacker does exactly THIS in THAT angle with his feet in just THAT pattern, and only if you're quicker than him.

    when i was a kid, a wnt to judo practice for 5 years or so (green belt) and came out thinking "this sucks! i can't even prevent the tiniest beating!" well, i guess armbars and so on is not suitable to teach to kids... and neither is self defense. now, about 25 years later, judo guys and girls use judo pretty effectively in the ufc... had I known that....
     
  18. JDB

    JDB Brown Belt

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    What a bunch of idiots.

    He didn't even get to attempt to prove his wing chun works.
     
  19. Unicorn Princes

    Unicorn Princes Banned Banned

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    [YT]aqPR32m20nc[/YT]
     
  20. SideKickPro24

    SideKickPro24 Blue Belt

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    Everyone knows that when someone is truly elite at a martial art, there is no "best" style. Every style will eventually depend on the individuals quickness, strength, and technique.

    That being said, boxing, wrestling, judo, and the other mainstream styles provide better competition. The more popular a MA is, the more people will do it, and thus the tougher it is to be elite at it.

    Honestly I've always thought this was why wrestlers do so well in MMA, it's not because the background is better than BJJ, or judo, because their all grapling styles. It's because wrestlers go through HELL in practice, and this starts at a very young age. So, their better able to push themselves through adversity.
     

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