Why didn't Gene Lebell ever roll with the Gracies?

[Big Nasty Edison]

It was the reverse; the Gracies challenged Gene, who was vastly older than him and he responded by challenging Helio, I think in a somewhat tongue and cheek manner.

Yup, you're right! That's it. They started it by pulling their "rig it so it'll favor us" shenanigans essentially.

 

[Intermission]

It was the reverse; the Gracies challenged Gene, who was vastly older than him and he responded by challenging Helio, I think in a somewhat tongue and cheek manner.

Why didn't he take up the challenge? Did he know his judo was too outdated on the ground?

 

[Rallarsvingare]

Pure hearsay, but I thought I half remembered a story about Rorion trying to book a proto MMA fight against Benny Urquidez back in the day.

When the Gracies found out Benny had been training grappling with Gene and Gokor they immediately stopped pursuing the fight.

They wanted to tap a famous kickboxer on film, but not if he'd been crosstraining grappling.

I dont remember where I read it but a couple of years ago there was an article writing about trash talking in the fight business before the internet. One of the storylines where news clips from black belt magazine where the Gracies and Urquidez were arguing with eachother. If Im not mistaken the article said Urquidez really believed the fight was happening so he started training intensivly with the Gene and his crew which led to the Gracies pulling out.

 

[shunyata]

I dont remember where I read it but a couple of years ago there was an article writing about trash talking in the fight business before the internet. One of the storylines where news clips from black belt magazine where the Gracies and Urquidez were arguing with eachother. If Im not mistaken the article said Urquidez really believed the fight was happening so he started training intensivly with the Gene and his crew which led to the Gracies pulling out.

sounds about right

think I heard it in gym, so that'd be the Hayastan account

they were in talks and told to send a fight contract but the Gracies balked and never sent it after finding out Benny wasn't a novice in grappling

jiu jitsu guys don't want to fight a combination puncher who can stuff a double leg

 

[Kforcer]

Why didn't he take up the challenge? Did he know his judo was too outdated on the ground?

Because he was an old man and it was absurd to have these young guys challenging him like that. He illustrated the absurdity of their challenge to him by challenging Helio, I think. As far as being "out of date", people are continuing to pull out moves and techniques LeBell taught as "ground-breaking."

 

[Intermission]

jiu jitsu guys don't want to fight a combination puncher who can stuff a double leg

Royce Gracie did fight a karateka who had wrestling background and Royce didn't know what to do for a very long time.

It wasn't even a good striker. But he could stuff takedowms

 

[Big Nasty Edison]

Royce Gracie did fight a karateka who had wrestling background and Royce didn't know what to do for a very long time.

It wasn't even a good striker. But he could stuff takedowms

Keith hackney is legit. If you got into a bar brawl, you'd be happy if he was on your side.

 

[Big Nasty Edison]

Because he was an old man and it was absurd to have these young guys challenging him like that. He illustrated the absurdity of their challenge to him by challenging Helio, I think. As far as being "out of date", people are continuing to pull out moves and techniques LeBell taught as "ground-breaking."

Not 20 minutes ago I saw some guy in a short showing a "kimura to bicep slicer" like it was the newest thing since sliced bread. Literally a double wrist lock to arm scissor, and Josh barnett has been showing it forever. And he learned it from guys who have probably been doing it since before movies had talking.

Like they have to be doing it on purpose at this point, right?

 

[Intermission]

Keith hackney is legit. If you got into a bar brawl, you'd be happy if he was on your side.

He looked awful against Ruas

 

[Belaya Smert]

His Portuguese is worse than Derns

 

[Big Nasty Edison]

He looked awful against Ruas

I should clarify. I mean legit tough guy, like not afraid to get punched. Which put him leagues above many TMA guys

 

[Intermission]

I should clarify. I mean legit tough guy, like not afraid to get punched. Which put him leagues above many TMA guys

I would agree with that.

 

[Kforcer]

Not 20 minutes ago I saw some guy in a short showing a "kimura to bicep slicer" like it was the newest thing since sliced bread. Literally a double wrist lock to arm scissor, and Josh barnett has been showing it forever. And he learned it from guys who have probably been doing it since before movies had talking.

Like they have to be doing it on purpose at this point, right?

Yeah, you have to wonder. The DWL to biceps-slicer is like, a fundamental catch-wrestling move; throw a dart at any Lou Thesz footage and chances are you'll land on an instance of him using that precise chain. But of course, it didn't originate with him either; you can find it in catch-wrestling instructionals, professional wrestling matches, just all over the place.

I guess they are just capitalizing on the fact that so few people make any sort of study of grappling history so its super-easy to take an older but less common technique and present it as your personal invention. Give it a few decades and people will probably be doing that with the Imanari.

 

[Kforcer]

Why didn't he take up the challenge? Did he know his judo was too outdated on the ground?

That wasn't it at all. And Gene, as someone who trained under Karl Gotch, Lou Thesz, Ed "The Strangler" Lewis and Vic Christy was bringing a lot more than judo to the table. It was that he was an old man getting called out by young men and he pointed out the absurdity of their challenge to him by making the challenge to Helio.

As it is, proteges of Gene LeBell have done great in MMA and grappling. Karo Parisyan, Manny Gamburyan, John Lewis, Ronda Rousey, Neil Melanson...if anything, far from being outdated, LeBell was, as compared with the Gracies, ahead of his time, what with his mastering of leglocks which they had still not embraced. And the bread and butter hold of catch-wrestling and one of LeBell's favorites, the DWL, was the same technique Sakuraba used to make things so tough on the Gracies in the early 2000's.

 

[Intermission]

That wasn't it at all. And Gene, as someone who trained under Karl Gotch, Lou Thesz, Ed "The Strangler" Lewis and Vic Christy was bringing a lot more than judo to the table. It was that he was an old man getting called out by young men and he pointed out the absurdity of their challenge to him by making the challenge to Helio.

As it is, proteges of Gene LeBell have done great in MMA and grappling. Karo Parisyan, Manny Gamburyan, John Lewis, Ronda Rousey, Neil Melanson...if anything, far from being outdated, LeBell was, as compared with the Gracies, ahead of his time, what with his mastering of leglocks which they had still not embraced. And the bread and butter hold of catch-wrestling and one of LeBell's favorites, the DWL, was the same technique Sakuraba used to make things so tough on the Gracies in the early 2000's.

So students of his that said Gene was the toughest guy in grappling even in his 60s were delusional? Bob Wall said nobody could submitt gene.

Catch wrestling has also lagged behind the groundwork development of BJJ. We have challenge matches to prove that

 

[shunyata]

That wasn't it at all. And Gene, as someone who trained under Karl Gotch, Lou Thesz, Ed "The Strangler" Lewis and Vic Christy was bringing a lot more than judo to the table. It was that he was an old man getting called out by young men and he pointed out the absurdity of their challenge to him by making the challenge to Helio.

As it is, proteges of Gene LeBell have done great in MMA and grappling. Karo Parisyan, Manny Gamburyan, John Lewis, Ronda Rousey, Neil Melanson...if anything, far from being outdated, LeBell was, as compared with the Gracies, ahead of his time, what with his mastering of leglocks which they had still not embraced. And the bread and butter hold of catch-wrestling and one of LeBell's favorites, the DWL, was the same technique Sakuraba used to make things so tough on the Gracies in the early 2000's.

Furthermore, when Cummings and Danaher sat down and devoured content before compiling it all into what would become the modern bjj leglock meta, they were basing everything on the existing data which was older media put out by Gene, Gokor, Vlad Koulikov, etc.

Everything they thought works got absorbed. And here we are now with purple belts on tiktok pushing old catch, judo, and sambo moves as new not knowing their history.

Personally I'm all for the end results, which is more complete free style submission grappling training and competition. But it does lead to silly purple belts on tiktok too.

 

[Intermission]

Furthermore, when Cummings and Danaher sat down and devoured content before compiling it all into what would become the modern bjj leglock meta, they were basing everything on the existing data which was older media put out by Gene, Gokor, Vlad Koulikov, etc.

Everything they thought works got absorbed. And here we are now with purple belts on tiktok pushing old catch, judo, and sambo moves as new not knowing their history.

Personally I'm all for the end results, which is more complete free style submission grappling training and competition. But it does lead to silly purple belts on tiktok too.

Was leg locks Genes speciality?

 

[Patrick Jane]

He looked awful against Ruas

His opponent was Marco Ruas though. No shame in looking awful against him.

 

[mattemate]

I seem to remember Rorion telling a story about visiting a judo club when he moved to America and beating all the black belts, but Gene ran away by the time he got to his side of the mat.

Utter bullshit, of course. I don't believe anyone corroborated the story either.

Not only that, Rorion only shared the story publicly when Gene was 90

 

[Kforcer]

So students of his that said Gene was the toughest guy in grappling even in his 60s were delusional? Bob Wall said nobody could submitt gene.

Catch wrestling has also lagged behind the groundwork development of BJJ. We have challenge matches to prove that

What challenges matches are you referring to? There were clearly things that catch-wrestling was doing, be it Japanese catch, luta livre or Western catch-wrestling, that BJJ wasn't and vice versa; BJJ's system of positional hierarchy was a huge thing, as you can see in the matches of Royler, Rickson, Royce and Erik Paulson when they competed against Japanese catch guys (including Shamrock).

At the same time, there were a lot of things catch-wrestling was doing that BJJ benefited from absorbing as well, such as the use of the DWL/Kimura from the feet, from bottom, from various positions, the use of leglocks, submission-chains and dynamic submission entries. The use of wrestling to set-up submissions was also a big thing.

The anaconda choke itself came directly from catch-wrestling (Brazilian catch-wrestling) to BTT.

Both styles learned from each other. Daisuke Yamajii, the first Renzo Gracie guy to master leglocks, was, as his name indicates, Japaense and studied Japanese catch heavily. Tons of BJJ guys benefied from the insights of luta livre masters like Pequeno Nogueira, Leitao, etc. Masakatsu Funaki basically innovated the K-guard, which ended up coming to others via his student Ken Shamrock and right now the K-guard is all the rage. Look at Minoru Tanaka setting up leglocks from half-guard at a time when you weren't going to find BJJ guys doing it.

The Americana came from an American wrestler who learned it from old-timers that were still doing submissions because they came from a time before scholastic wrestling and totally barred "punishing holds."

Everyone learned from everyone. And as far as Gene Lebell, his accomplishments speak for himself. But it is silly to expect an old man to face off against someone in their 20's or 30's. My high school wrestling coach was an Olympic silver medalist and the first American to win Tbilisi; even at his old age, you sometimes saw him pushing people around the mat. One time, he basically made me do cartwheels with his wrist control. That doesn't mean that I'd expect him to get on the mat competitively against young people in their physical prime for the honor of American wrestling.