Social Why are evangelicals against sex ed?

[ShadBo]

Even though I disagree with Thesaz on fundamental levels- almost to where there is no common ground at all-- the phenomenon identified as being demonic possession is its own category and is not just mental illness. If it were only mental illness or a medical condition then spiritual practices like exorcisms and others would not be effective.

Show me some data the efficacy of exorcisms, please.

 

[franklinstower]

Show me some data the efficacy of exorcisms, please.

As far as I know this has never been studied. Have not searched either. Its an area that no scientist would want to touch even if they knew for certain the phenomenon existed.

Remember I am not making the claim that demons are possessing people. Only that what is labeled demonic possession is a real thing and that religous traditions have produced ways of dealing with it.

And on a lesser scale that I regularly see people gain freedom from suffering of various kinds through employing spiritual practices after having tried for years to get results through conventional means.

 

[ShadBo]

As far as I know this has never been studied. Have not searched either. Its an area that no scientist would want to touch even if they knew for certain the phenomenon existed.

Remember I am not making the claim that demons are possessing people. Only that what is labeled demonic possession is a real thing and that religous traditions have produced ways of dealing with it.

And on a lesser scale that I regularly see people gain freedom from suffering of various kinds through employing spiritual practices after having tried for years to get results through conventional means.

You said

If it were only mental illness or a medical condition then spiritual practices like exorcisms and others would not be effective.

But you have no data on the efficacy of exorcisms and are not certain that it has even been studied.

How can you claim that exorcisms are effective without having data to confirm that they are effective?

EDIT:

Its an area that no scientist would want to touch even if they knew for certain the phenomenon existed.

This is completely opposite to the goal of science. There is a Nobel prize waiting for the scientist who can confirm demonic possession is real. Such a discovery would open up an entirely new field of study. To suggest that the Templeton Foundation wouldn't jump at the chance to demonstrate the truth of demonic possession is, respectfully, ridiculous.

 

[franklinstower]

You said

But you have no data on the efficacy of exorcisms and are not aware that it has even been studied.



How can you claim that they are effective without having data to confirm?

Because I've witnessed it many many times over the course of many years. I am not asking you to take my word for it.


I know spiritual practices work because I have witnessed them work for many people over the course of years.

However I don't in any way expect you to accept that based on an internet conversation. Other people are open to human experience and will listen and probably share their experience too.

As far as scientists waiting to get the Nobel prize for studies on exorcism-- if that is the claim you make then direct me to these studies. I would love to read them.

Links?

 

[franklinstower]

^^^^
Links that scientists have tried to prove demonic possession is real are what i am most interested and you did imply these had been done. Where are the links?

Edit--

You said

To suggest that the Templeton Foundation wouldn't jump at the chance to demonstrate the truth of demonic possession is, respectfully, ridiculous.

I cant seem to find any attempts with Templeton trying to prove or even disprove demonic possession. This is ridiculous right? Why wouldn't they jump at the chance?

@ShadBo

 

[ShadBo]

Because I've witnessed it many m.times over the course of many years. I am bot asking you to take my word for it.



I know spiritual practices work because I have witnessed them work for many people over the course of years.

However I don't in any way expect you to accept that based on an internet conversation. Other people are open to human experience and will listen and probably share their experience too.

As far as scientists waiting to get the Nobel prize for studies on exorcism-- if that is the claim you make then direct me to these studies. I would love to read them.

Links?

Anecdote and personal testimony are not reliable forms of data.

You said:

Its an area that no scientist would want to touch even if they knew for certain the phenomenon existed.

So A) we don't know the phenomenon exists for certain and B) the number of assumptions that have to be made to even get to demonic possession is staggering.

We're derailing this thread now so I won't keep up at it. One more question: How could demonic possession be falsified? You don't have to answer in this thread, just think about it.

 

[franklinstower]

Anecdote and personal testimony are not reliable forms of data.

You said:



So A) we don't know the phenomenon exists for certain and B) the number of assumptions that have to be made to even get to demonic possession is staggering.

We're derailing this thread now so I won't keep up at it. One more question: How could demonic possession be falsified? You don't have to answer in this thread, just think about it.

I would not run away after making claims I could not back up like you are. Answer my questions for links on studies about demonic possession.

 

[ShadBo]

I would not run away after making claims I could not back up like you are. Answer my questions for links on studies about demonic possession.

You said

Its an area that no scientist would want to touch even if they knew for certain the phenomenon existed.

Scientists don't claim that demonic possession occurs. People with extreme religious beliefs do. Why haven't these folks demonstrated the truth of their claims? Why is it on "scientists" to do the leg work? That isn't how science works.

You make the claim, you present the data. There's an obvious reason why there are few studies (you can find some if you google) on demonic possession. You're a smart fellow, I'm sure you can figure out why.

As for why the Templeton Foundation hasn't attempted to study and confirm demonic possession, I can only guess that after their spectacular failure to confirm the efficacy of prayer, they would prefer not to be publically humiliated again.

Why don't you make a thread in Mayberry on this subject and we can continue on.

 

[franklinstower]

You said

Scientists don't claim that demonic possession occurs. People with extreme religious beliefs do. Why haven't these folks demonstrated the truth of their claims? Why is it on "scientists" to do the leg work? That isn't how science works.

You make the claim, you present the data. There's an obvious reason why there are few studies (you can find some if you google) on demonic possession. You're a smart fellow, I'm sure you can figure out why.

As for why the Templeton Foundation hasn't attempted to study and confirm demonic possession, I can only guess that after their spectacular failure to confirm the efficacy of prayer, they would prefer not to be publically humiliated again.

Why don't you make a thread in Mayberry on this subject and we can continue on.

You said this in another post

To suggest that the Templeton Foundation wouldn't jump at the chance to demonstrate the truth of demonic possession is, respectfully, ridiculous.

So I guess you cannot provide any links or data to back this position even though you used it to try and discredit a statement I made..... OK. I knew that you would not be able to as i have tried and that is why I said no one studies this to my knowledge-- and you disputed that.

In the future it is important-- especially when using science as your arguing point, as you are, that you don't make claims that you cant back up with data.

I don't make this mistake. I have learned to clearly state that I am speaking from experience and opinion when I am only speaking from experiences or opinion. Like in this thread.

 

[ShadBo]

You said this in another post

To suggest that the Templeton Foundation wouldn't jump at the chance to demonstrate the truth of demonic possession is, respectfully, ridiculous.

So I guess you cannot provide any links or data to back this position even though you used it to try and discredit a statement I made..... OK. I knew that you would not be able to as i have tried and that is why I said no one studies this to my knowledge-- and you disputed that.

In the future it is important-- especially when using science as your arguing point, as you are, that you don't make claims that you cant back up with data.

I don't make this mistake. I have learned to clearly state that I am speaking from experience and opinion when I am only speaking from experiences or opinion. Like in this thread.

You said

Its an area that no scientist would want to touch even if they knew for certain the phenomenon existed.

There is a Nobel prize waiting for anyone who can confirm demonic possession.

There's a reason that prize remains unclaimed.

 

[franklinstower]

You said


There is a Nobel prize waiting for anyone who can confirm demonic possession.

There's a reason that prize remains unclaimed.

I agree with this statement. I just cant see why you said this and then cant show any proof of this--

To suggest that the Templeton Foundation wouldn't jump at the chance to demonstrate the truth of demonic possession is, respectfully, ridiculous.

 

[ShadBo]

I agree with this statement. I just cant see why you said this and then cant show any proof of this--

To suggest that the Templeton Foundation wouldn't jump at the chance to demonstrate the truth of demonic possession is, respectfully, ridiculous.

Have you considered that they suspect they cannot demonstrate that demonic possession occurs?

 

[franklinstower]

Have you considered that they suspect they cannot demonstrate that demonic possession occurs?

Well that is very similar to what I said remember? I said they don't study this kind of thing and then you replied with this--

To suggest that the Templeton Foundation wouldn't jump at the chance to demonstrate the truth of demonic possession is, respectfully, ridiculous.

I am glad you have come around. I hope you have learned something from this exchange. I suggest instead of jumping in and trying so hard to win that you make stupid and self contradictory arguments-- maybe just try asking questions and getting to know where someone is coming from without trying to beat them. Its a lot more enjoyable I have found.

 

[ShadBo]

Well that is very similar to what I said remember? I said they don't study this kind of thing and then you replied with this--

To suggest that the Templeton Foundation wouldn't jump at the chance to demonstrate the truth of demonic possession is, respectfully, ridiculous.

I am glad you have come around. I hope you have learned something from this exchange. I suggest instead of jumping in and tying so hard to win that you make stupid and self contradictory arguments-- maybe just try asking questions and getting to know where someone is coming from without trying to beat t them. Its a lot more enjoyable I have found.

You said

Its an area that no scientist would want to touch even if they knew for certain the phenomenon existed.

If someone was certain they could demonstrate something, open a new field of study, become famous and earn one of science's most prestigious awards, I struggle to see why they wouldn't. You think they wouldn't for...reasons.

The answer is simple: scientists don't study unfalsifiable phenomenon.

If demonic possession is real, those claiming that it is are free to employ the scientific method and present their findings. The fact that they haven't should be a good clue as to whether or not these people are convinced they can demonstrate that it is a real phenomenon.

 

[franklinstower]

You said


If someone was certain they could demonstrate something, open a new field of study, become famous and earn one of science's most prestigious awards, I struggle to see why they wouldn't. You think they wouldn't for...reasons.

The answer is simple: scientists don't study unfalsifiable phenomenon.

If demonic possession is real, those claiming that it is are free to employ the scientific method and present their findings. The fact that they haven't should be a good clue as to whether or not these people are convinced they can demonstrate that it is a real phenomenon.

OK.

 

[Thurisaz]

If one wants to delve deeper into what is the reality of demon possession and exorcism these days, I'd suggest Malachi Martin's books on the subject.

 

[ShadBo]

If one wants to delve deeper into what is the reality of demon possession and exorcism these days, I'd suggest Malachi Martin's books on the subject.

Anyone can write a book. See: The bible.

I'm concerned about what is real. What can be shown to be true.

 

[franklinstower]

Anyone can write a book. See: The bible.

I'm concerned about what is real. What can be shown to be true.

I see you learned your lesson.

If a tree falls in the forest and there is no one to observe it or study it-- did the tree actually fall in the forest? Following your logic I think you have to say no.

 

[ShadBo]

I see you learned your lesson.

If a tree falls in the forest and there is no one to observe it or study it-- did the tree actually fall in the forest? Following your logic I think you have to say no.

If someone claims that a tree fell in the forest, but can't say which forest, give directions to the forest, and only heard about the tree falling from a friend who heard it from a friend, I would probably still accept that a tree fell in a forest, although I couldn't be certain.

See: mundane claims vs extraordinary claims.

 

[franklinstower]

If someone claims that a tree fell in the forest, but can't say which forest, give directions to the forest, and only heard about the tree falling from a friend who heard it from a friend, I would probably still accept that a tree fell in a forest, although I couldn't be certain.

See: mundane claims vs extraordinary claims.

See-- now Im just messing you man......