Why America CANT WIN international Judo

[lechien]

The french have an incredible history in wrestling

The carnivals were bastian's of catch-as-catch-can competition as the local Farm boys would pay $ for a shot at their Carnival Grappler

of course there were many interesting caveats

That is good info that you read in the internet
But I only did judo in France and Gaellic wrestling.

Never seen or heard carnival wrestling.

 

[-guerilla-]

That is good info that you read in the internet
But I only did judo in France and Gaellic wrestling.

Never seen or heard carnival wrestling.

perhaps before your time

 

[-guerilla-]

Once again, France treats judo as a martial art, an education tool for kids to become better citizen.

It is a number game.

In judo you build your adult competition from kids level.

You don't need to change anything really.

You just need to have more volunteers teaching judo to kids.

But guess what?
No one wants to do it because it is volunteers with no financial rewards

Everyone is gone to bjj because you can make or used to make a good living.

Even in local judo community, you would have the larpers that just want to katas and the competitors.

You need both in order to financially survive.

Bjj knows that very as I would say 10 percent of paying members would be competitors.

But guess what?

We happily takes their money and get on with our competition team.

Not sure you keep insisting that both styles cannot co-exist because they do.

France, most of europe the soviet bloc and Asia all treat judo more like a competitive sport than a martial art...of course there are kata nerds everywhere

America treats is soley as a martial art and worries more about LIABILITY than producing an internationally compeditive team

IF america treated Judo like wrestling they would be more compeditive

 

[lechien]

Ok.
Just a quick question about the state of judo in USA
How can someone obtain a shodan in Judo in the USA?

In NZ, you have to accumulate a total of 100 points in competition.
Basically defeat ten black belt in Shiai.

 

[-guerilla-]

Ok.
Just a quick question about the state of judo in USA
How can someone obtain a shodan in Judo in the USA?

In NZ, you have to accumulate a total of 100 points in competition.
Basically defeat ten black belt in Shiai.

I recived my childhood shodan in Hawai'i in 1985 but USA Judo wont recognize it so
I am now in the process of getting my adult shodan (earned in 92 under USJF Shihan) recognized...I have been at it for about 7 months

First they required that I purchased a membership and take several tests including a background and concussion recognition exam

then they required that we became an official Club

then they required that I become an official coach

and then they required that I had my Shodan recognized by one of their local Representatives

the requirements were recently explained to me as:
One is required to arrive at a specific USA judo representative dojo and go through a workout where they can watch your technique, listen to your explanation to lower belts on how to execute throws then run through the first nine techniques of nage-no-kata. Additionally you are also required to be up on your terminology and how to do all 40 throws of the gokyo-no-waza lefty and righty

Doesnt seem to be any competition/ Randori requirement or evaluation and is likely interspersed with a heafty amount of opinion and interpretation

I would very much prefer they did it the way the kickboxing and MMA gyms do....

"Trial by combat" is so much less artistic open to interpretation and opinion and a more reliable skill examination IMO

Makes me realize why I quit traditional Judo in the first place and gravitated towards wrestling, kickboxing and MMA

My Hawai'i instructor was Japanese and he hated Kata and politics

He was only interested in our randori but he was also really into sumo and kickboxing/karate as well

I seriously doubt I'll be able to impress them to the degree to have my shodan recognized since I haven't had a formal Judo session in over 20 years but I promised the kids at my MMA Club I would do my best to get them recognized and help grow Judo in our town

In contrast I was certified as a wrestling coach after a phone call and a background check...took 3 days and I was on the mat helping the kids at the local high school

 

[lechien]

I feel your pain.
Bureaucracy and all the red tape.

Bjj is informal where it was quiet common to see blue belt running clubs.

For example, one of my students who is a blue belt in bjj and judo is going back to university and wanted to start a little judo club at her new university.
The federation told her no because she is not shodan and got no coaching certification.

I just gave her my blessing and told her to go teach bjj instead.

Problem solved.

 

[vcmmafan]

OP is oozing with insecurity

 

[-guerilla-]

I feel your pain.
Bureaucracy and all the red tape.

Bjj is informal where it was quiet common to see blue belt running clubs.

For example, one of my students who is a blue belt in bjj and judo is going back to university and wanted to start a little judo club at her new university.
The federation told her no because she is not shodan and got no coaching certification.

I just gave her my blessing and told her to go teach bjj instead.

Problem solved.

In the states BJJ "legitimacy" is just as intense since its become such a massive cash cow

So funny to see all the martial arts fiefdom politics

It reminds me of a time when I was in Taekwondo and two of my biracial Korean friends went to their home country for the first time as adults

When they came back they were absolutely stunned

They reported that the Koreans didn't give a bit of Creedence to forms, tradition or martial arts politics but we're solely interested in the modern sport

They said they felt like they had been literally fooled by the American practice of doing forms and technique for 90% of class and then a quick bit of free sparring at them very end Whereas the Koreans warmed up, hit pads and begin sparring nearly straight away in a class structure more akin to kickboxing or wrestling

It seems that Americans are actually far more "traditional" than the Asians

In fact these two biracial Brothers now considered the americans practice of over traditionalism as nearly raciest has they considered americans as trying to do their impression of what they thought Asians were like

Then I reminded them that our Taekwondo master was Korean born and they said well...he's just trying to cash in on the american model

high profit and low risk whereas in Asia they were all about training to win in a contest format while americans were all about business

No wonder Americans cant win International tae kwon do either but they certainly do a hell of a lot better than Judo

 

[-guerilla-]

OP is oozing with insecurity

Yeah...thats a fact

I am very insecure that America can win International judo and I will be "permitted" to grow the sport

Unlike wrestling where they welcome support and growth Judo focus on fiefdom politics that inhibit the growth while empowering a few regional bosses to control the "sport"

Thats martial art vs combat sports 101

Kinda reminds me of this guy that was sort of a martial arts personality back in the 70s and his personal struggle to bring martial arts to Americans despite the intense fiefdom politics always inhibiting his progress

 

[ChickenBrother]

I feel your pain.
Bureaucracy and all the red tape.

Bjj is informal where it was quiet common to see blue belt running clubs.

For example, one of my students who is a blue belt in bjj and judo is going back to university and wanted to start a little judo club at her new university.
The federation told her no because she is not shodan and got no coaching certification.

I just gave her my blessing and told her to go teach bjj instead.

Problem solved.

It has its drawbacks, but I think the Judo competition model is superior. But the club I came up in was competition oriented (college Judo team). So everyone competed. There were always 2 or 3 guys on the team that started as kids and made Shodan at 16 or 17 but most of the team started at white belt as freshmen. Over half had been HS wrestlers like myself and some guys had been cut from our D1 wrestling team and switched to Judo. Belt promotions were standardized and merit-based. If you won enough matches in competition, you got your next belt. Most guys with 0.50 or better competition records made brown within 4 years and my former D1 friend made Shodan his senior year (but he beat his first BB in competition as a yellow belt).

So there was no sandbagging, no pity promotions. If you won matches you got promoted. Period. In the U.S. I believe USJA still has the requirement to beat 10 BB's in competition to make Shodan + perform Nage No Kata at senior nationals. I don't think it's even possible to make Shodan without competing - if it is, it would probably take you 20 years and wouldn't mean anything.

Contrast that with BJJ "world" champs at every belt color. IMO if you're good enough to compete at the "world" level in any capacity then you're an advanced competitor, which is what Judo brown/black division is for.

 

[-guerilla-]

It has its drawbacks, but I think the Judo competition model is superior. But the club I came up in was competition oriented (college Judo team). So everyone competed. There were always 2 or 3 guys on the team that started as kids and made Shodan at 16 or 17 but most of the team started at white belt as freshmen. Over half had been HS wrestlers like myself and some guys had been cut from our D1 wrestling team and switched to Judo. Belt promotions were standardized and merit-based. If you won enough matches in competition, you got your next belt. Most guys with 0.50 or better competition records made brown within 4 years and my former D1 friend made Shodan his senior year (but he beat his first BB in competition as a yellow belt).

So there was no sandbagging, no pity promotions. If you won matches you got promoted. Period. In the U.S. I believe there's still the requirement to beat 10 BB's in competition to make Shodan + perform Nage No Kata at senior nationals. I don't think it's even possible to make Shodan without competing - if it is, it would probably take you 20 years.

Contrast that with BJJ "world" champs at every belt color. IMO if you're good enough to compete at the "world" level in any capacity then you're an advanced competitor, which is what Judo brown/black division is for.

How do you think America's Judo performance would be affected if we did away with all ranking systems, traditional terminology plus forms and focused exclusively on Judo as a combat sport much like the Russians handle sambo?

I believe this kind of adjustment would make it a welcome addition to the public school systems however its current state would never be permitted as a Scholastic sport

 

[ChickenBrother]

How do you think America's Judo performance would be affected if we did away with all ranking systems, traditional terminology plus forms and focused exclusively on Judo as a combat sport much like the Russians handle sambo?

I believe this kind of adjustment would make it a welcome addition to the public school systems however its current state would never be permitted as a Scholastic sport

Dude, as long as you're being respectful I'll respond respectfully. With this thread and others I think you're barking up the wrong tree. Grappling sports are not mainstream in the U.S. and they're just not sexy to the American mainstream. If an athlete like Jordan Burroughs with his looks and international record isn't a household name, no amount of government sponsorship or subsidization is going to change that.

Secondly, the U.S. as a hegemonic power doesn't have the incentive or need to put on a showing in the Olympics to win respect like some other countries do, because 'murica. Swimming, T&F, gymnastics and figure skating are popular because they feature attractive athletes performing sports that casuals have either done themselves or otherwise like to watch. No one outside hardcore MMA or grappling fans enjoy watching two athletes roll around on a mat unless there's "Just Bleed" potential in the mix, a market that's currently addressed by MMA.

Third random thought re. Judo. I don't know why Marti Malloy wasn't given more of a PR push. Great looking woman, seems well spoken. Judo Olympic Bronze in 2012 at 57 kg and competed internationally until 2014. Not sure what happened to her but IMO she could have been more marketable than Kayla or even Ronda if she'd pursued WMMA or any other form of grappling.

 

[-guerilla-]

Dude, as long as you're being respectful I'll respond respectfully. With this thread and others I think you're barking up the wrong tree. Grappling sports are not mainstream in the U.S. and they're just not sexy to the American mainstream. If an athlete like Jordan Burroughs with his looks and international record isn't a household name, no amount of government sponsorship or subsidization is going to change that.

Secondly, the U.S. as a hegemonic power doesn't have the incentive or need to put on a showing in the Olympics to win respect like some other countries do, because 'murica. Swimming, T&F, gymnastics and figure skating are popular because they feature attractive athletes performing sports that casuals have either done themselves or otherwise like to watch. No one outside hardcore MMA or grappling fans enjoy watching two athletes roll around on a mat unless there's "Just Bleed" potential in the mix, a market that's currently addressed by MMA.

Third random thought re. Judo. I don't know why Marti Malloy wasn't given more of a PR push. Great looking woman, seems well spoken. Judo Olympic Bronze in 2012 at 57 kg and competed internationally until 2014. Not sure what happened to her but IMO she could have been more marketable than Kayla or even Ronda if she'd pursued WMMA or any other form of grappling.

Well...as long as you're being respectful I will respond respectfully

(pretty certain you're the one that broke bad first on my Americans can't win international wrestling thread however that is expected as my thread style is viscerally upsetting intentionally as they are designed to elicit intense responses while adhering closely to the simple truths of sports science and politics in an attempt to educate the laymen)

https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/why-america-cant-win-international-wrestling.3962719/

Anyway as is Central to the theme in that thread the same can be said for international Judo or any other sport that Americans don't win consistently

For those of you that don't want to thumb their way through all the visceral anger on my Americans can't win series in synopsis my belief is that the corporate overlords that command and control every aspect of modern sport in our country are wise enough not to invest their advertising dollars in any sport where "Captain America" is likely to get crushed by a Soviet wrecking machine or some yellow skinned Asian because the corporate Mega Monster Overlord is hyper aware that Americans deep racist and cultural disregard for other countries will impact their profit return

Long story short it doesn't matter how good-looking well-spoken or charismatic an American athlete is with a flash-in-the-pan success in wrestling or Judo as McDonald's, Coke and Budweiser still won't touch them with a ten-foot pole because they know right around the corner there is some hairy guy from one of the old soviet bloc, [GASP] AN ISLAMIC COUNTRY or a short slight yellow skinned Asian that's going to pound Captain America into the dirt because the avail themselves of the more socialized public sports infrastructure in Asia and the former soviet bloc/ Islamic countries

Just like they have been doing for decades

-Shedog Disclaimer- I have intense and deep respect for all people internationally as I was raised in five disparate foreign countries

My statements within this thread in no way reflect my personal opinions about non Americans but synopsize my assessment of the American corporate advertising mentality and it's deep and intense reverence for cash returns knowing that Americans have been heavily indoctrinated in anti-foreign sentiment especially as of late

 

[lechien]

It has its drawbacks, but I think the Judo competition model is superior. But the club I came up in was competition oriented (college Judo team). So everyone competed. There were always 2 or 3 guys on the team that started as kids and made Shodan at 16 or 17 but most of the team started at white belt as freshmen. Over half had been HS wrestlers like myself and some guys had been cut from our D1 wrestling team and switched to Judo. Belt promotions were standardized and merit-based. If you won enough matches in competition, you got your next belt. Most guys with 0.50 or better competition records made brown within 4 years and my former D1 friend made Shodan his senior year (but he beat his first BB in competition as a yellow belt).

So there was no sandbagging, no pity promotions. If you won matches you got promoted. Period. In the U.S. I believe USJA still has the requirement to beat 10 BB's in competition to make Shodan + perform Nage No Kata at senior nationals. I don't think it's even possible to make Shodan without competing - if it is, it would probably take you 20 years and wouldn't mean anything.

Contrast that with BJJ "world" champs at every belt color. IMO if you're good enough to compete at the "world" level in any capacity then you're an advanced competitor, which is what Judo brown/black division is for.

Bjj competition model like ibjjf is far superior than Judo.

Just look at the numbers of participants and it means the sport is growing unlike Judo.

 

[lechien]

In the states BJJ "legitimacy" is just as intense since its become such a massive cash cow

So funny to see all the martial arts fiefdom politics

It reminds me of a time when I was in Taekwondo and two of my biracial Korean friends went to their home country for the first time as adults

When they came back they were absolutely stunned

They reported that the Koreans didn't give a bit of Creedence to forms, tradition or martial arts politics but we're solely interested in the modern sport

They said they felt like they had been literally fooled by the American practice of doing forms and technique for 90% of class and then a quick bit of free sparring at them very end Whereas the Koreans warmed up, hit pads and begin sparring nearly straight away in a class structure more akin to kickboxing or wrestling

It seems that Americans are actually far more "traditional" than the Asians

In fact these two biracial Brothers now considered the americans practice of over traditionalism as nearly raciest has they considered americans as trying to do their impression of what they thought Asians were like

Then I reminded them that our Taekwondo master was Korean born and they said well...he's just trying to cash in on the american model

high profit and low risk whereas in Asia they were all about training to win in a contest format while americans were all about business

No wonder Americans cant win International tae kwon do either but they certainly do a hell of a lot better than Judo

View attachment 761390

The standards to achieve shodan in NZ is harder than in Japan.

Japan is still better at competition than NZ.

So it does not matter if you make it harder to achieve black belt because it does covert into world ranking.

Once again, it is a number game

 

[QingTian]

IMO, Judo has to be in the culture because you need to start young to have a shot at world level. It takes longer to learn, has a large feel component, and favors explosive output that peaks in the early 20's. Countries that win have either a large population to filter the ones who happen to have the right attributes, or a professional program.

Judo never made it to mainstream culture in the US and just when they started winning you had an explosion of other martial arts to compete with.

You see clubs die out all the time as there is hardly a new generation of students to carry on. There are clubs that have produced national champions only to barely put out shodan worthy players now. The contrast between BJJ and Judo clubs is stark - one is full of fit athletic young men, and the other full of oddballs who are reluctant to take falls.

This compounds the problem because training Judo is both ineffective and dangerous without high level sensei. The lost pool of knowledge won't be easy to rebuild.

I don't know the solution. Judo isn't going to out-BJJ BJJ. It's not going to out-wrestle into schools.

Maybe now with YouTube the knowledge transmission and awareness can be better, but Judo certainly suffered in the 90s and 2000s.

 

[-guerilla-]

Bjj competition model like ibjjf is far superior than Judo.

Just look at the numbers of participants and it means the sport is growing unlike Judo.

I think that has more to do with its "safer" profile and the royce gracie mythos as judo can be very intimidating on the drop

an amateur ura nage could be a real show stopper

 

[ChickenBrother]

Bjj competition model like ibjjf is far superior than Judo.

Just look at the numbers of participants and it means the sport is growing unlike Judo.

If I wasn't clear I'm not arguing that BJJ as a promotional model isn't superior for growing membership. It clearly is. Hobbyist non-competitors keep the lights on in both sports.

What I was saying is that IMO the Judo competition model (acknowledging that competitors are a minority of participants in both Judo and BJJ) is superior in creating a meritocracy for promotions and prioritizing competition performance over chasing a belt color.

What this leads to in practice is much less emphasis on belt color in Judo, making it not a big deal if a yellow belt with a D1 background beats a BB in competition. But that guy will (based on competition performance) very quickly be promoted to brown and then black after which point belts don't matter. From a competitor standpoint I'd argue that technically belt color doesn't matter in Judo after brown because a brown is eligible for any Judo international competition including the Olympics.

Another advantage of the Judo promotion system is that your competition record stays with you independent of your school affiliation. So if you move and have to change schools, you pick up right where you left off and don't have to deal with any political crap about justifying and then advancing from your current belt. So it eliminates subjectivity and 100% objectifies promotions up to brown. I've seen some politics for BB but as I said for a competitor it doesn't matter once you're brown.

I agree with your above point about instructor certification politics for Judo. The IJF is corrupt and so is the IBJJF.

 

[-guerilla-]

IMO, Judo has to be in the culture because you need to start young to have a shot at world level. It takes longer to learn, has a large feel component, and favors explosive output that peaks in the early 20's. Countries that win have either a large population to filter the ones who happen to have the right attributes, or a professional program.

Judo never made it to mainstream culture in the US and just when they started winning you had an explosion of other martial arts to compete with.

You see clubs die out all the time as there is hardly a new generation of students to carry on. There are clubs that have produced national champions only to barely put out shodan worthy players now. The contrast between BJJ and Judo clubs is stark - one is full of fit athletic young men, and the other full of oddballs who are reluctant to take falls.

This compounds the problem because training Judo is both ineffective and dangerous without high level sensei. The lost pool of knowledge won't be easy to rebuild.

I don't know the solution. Judo isn't going to out-BJJ BJJ. It's not going to out-wrestle into schools.

Maybe now with YouTube the knowledge transmission and awareness can be better, but Judo certainly suffered in the 90s and 2000s.

Judo is DOA in the USA because it is handled as an exclusive fiefdom martial art instead of a combat sport and that is just too fruity for the average american steeped in the lessons of hardcore MMA

...BJJ had enough sense to be part of MMA and thus lives off its popularity while judo fiefdoms shun MMA as if its contamination

So

BJJ ate Judo lunch [with its own newaza] and now judo is STARVING slowly to death

while wrestling is just barely hanging on in the school system it still has VASTLY more athletes than bjj and judo put together [because its a free sport in the public school system] -HINT-

https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/american-scolastic-folkstyle-wrestling-a-dying-sport.3964681/

lets face it...bjj and wrestling are living off MMAs underbelly and judo just couldn't find a teat because it thought it was too good to become just another skill for MMA

As contest manipulation (like crowd-pleasing stand-ups) become more and more common and accepted in MMA BJJ and wrestling skills will become worthless

Once the fighter that lost the takedown realizes all they have to do is get Guard amd stall like a baby monkey in a wind storm and they get a free stand up that's pretty much all the ground game will evolve into

The grappling Specialists will ultimatly disappear from mma and we'll be left with nothing but crowd (and thus corporate) pleasing slugfests so take down oriented Styles like Freestyle and Judo will still have a slim hold whereas ground fighting styles like BJJ and folkstyle American wrestling will be pushed further and further into the trash bin of History

Judo's ONLY shot at Redemption is becoming a pure combat sport that is heavily Americanized and would do well to create a gi-les division and STOP ALLOWING PROPLE TO SLIDE OUT OF BOUNDS for the magic "do over"

As it is one of the most AWESOME grappling sports is slowly choking out

look at this PITIFUL TINY CROWD

more people at the waffle house



Tragedy

 

[QingTian]

Let's be honest, how many of us care to watch individual events? Not just Judo, but BJJ, wrestling, and MMA. They start to look the same. I might get interested in super fights but I have no desire to slog through an entire event let alone a B event.

You only need a few events a year to get people interested, but after that it's all about how much people get out of each practice. People feel great after going to a BJJ club. The average US Judo club? Questionable. A ton of time wasted on ceremony, warm ups, shitty instruction, improper drills for the population, finished by defensive chickenshit randori where few get the satisfaction of a good throw entry. That's the typical USA Judo at the club level.