Who beats Tyson Fury all time?

Seano said:
Norton was a good fighter because he beat Ali. Thats all he ever did -beat a shopworn version of a great fighter. He never could replicate that success against anyone else he fought.
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he beat the shit out of duane bobick.
 
Seano said:
Bobick was great?
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he beat jimmy young, he beat quarry, never fought joe because they were buds. good fighter in the greatest heavyweight era ever. Lost to every big puncher he fought, shavers, foreman, cooney, back him up and he's nothing.
 
mozfonky said:
he beat jimmy young, he beat quarry, never fought joe because they were buds. good fighter in the greatest heavyweight era ever. Lost to every big puncher he fought, shavers, foreman, cooney, back him up and he's nothing.
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Who didn't beat Quarry?
I think he gets too many bonus points for fighting at the same time as other great fighters. You know I've compared him to Oliver McCall and that comparison is spot on, unless you start factoring in things like McCall was a crackhead and Norton was in Roots. McCall KO'd Lewis and actually has a similar, if not better, resume overall compared to Norton. No one would entertain the idea of calling McCall great.
The word great gets used a little too loosely in the Ali era. Fighters weren't great just because a great fighter was active at the same time.
 
Fury is too big and tough and versatile for me to be confident any HW beats him
I give Lewis the best shot
 
Seano said:
Who didn't beat Quarry?
I think he gets too many bonus points for fighting at the same time as other great fighters. You know I've compared him to Oliver McCall and that comparison is spot on, unless you start factoring in things like McCall was a crackhead and Norton was in Roots. McCall KO'd Lewis and actually has a similar, if not better, resume overall compared to Norton. No one would entertain the idea of calling McCall great.
The word great gets used a little too loosely in the Ali era. Fighters weren't great just because a great fighter was active at the same time.
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did i say he was great? i said he was a fine fighter and he was. and he was a great athlete, maybe the best athlete of that era and one of the all time great physiques in the sport. It was just a tough era for anyone. Foreman, Lyle, Norton, Shavers, Quarry, bonavena, chuvalo, jimmy young, all good fighters, all capable of giving a tough night to other on their best nights. Foreman lost to Jimmy Young didn't he? tough era for all and only a declining ali had wins over most if not all of them.
 
lukeuidswords said:
Fury is too big and tough and versatile for me to be confident any HW beats him
I give Lewis the best shot
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ya, i've never seen a man over 230 move like him, he might be just too big for the smaller guys, at the same time, he don't have much power. I remember reading some specious article about how Primo Carnera was big but had no power because of his long arms and the leverage, Fury seems to be a giant with mismatch type of power. He kayoed wilder but it's not a good demonstration of his power, he only landed a couple real clean shots so I'm not ready to call him a big time puncher, anyway, Joe Louis beat the big guys like carnera and that one giant, shit, forget his name, but he beat him twice, badly.
 
mozfonky said:
ya, i've never seen a man over 230 move like him, he might be just too big for the smaller guys, at the same time, he don't have much power. I remember reading some specious article about how Primo Carnera was big but had no power because of his long arms and the leverage, Fury seems to be a giant with mismatch type of power. He kayoed wilder but it's not a good demonstration of his power, he only landed a couple real clean shots so I'm not ready to call him a big time puncher, anyway, Joe Louis beat the big guys like carnera and that one giant, shit, forget his name, but he beat him twice, badly.
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He moves very well for his size but I've seen that from giants in other sports like basketball. The whole fantasy match-up idea is highly flawed IMO because we're assuming how both fighters will approach the fight h2h. For instance, does Fury just go in with part of his primary strategy to tie up and lean on any of these smaller lighter all-timers for several rounds to drain them early? That would be difficult to stop unless the ref in the hypothetical match-up takes points or is prepared to actually DQ him for abusing it. Wlad's jab, grab & lean strategy (Lennox did it too) was extremely effective at draining opponents so they weren't nearly as effective. In Fury's last couple fights he's made a point of doing it but in the Wilder rematch even more so, it was one of his main keys to victory.
 
Kovalev's "Man Bag" said:
He moves very well for his size but I've seen that from giants in other sports like basketball. The whole fantasy match-up idea is highly flawed IMO because we're assuming how both fighters will approach the fight h2h. For instance, does Fury just go in with part of his primary strategy to tie up and lean on any of these smaller lighter all-timers for several rounds to drain them early? That would be difficult to stop unless the ref in the hypothetical match-up takes points or is prepared to actually DQ him for abusing it. Wlad's jab, grab & lean strategy (Lennox did it too) was extremely effective at draining opponents so they weren't nearly as effective. In Fury's last couple fights he's made a point of doing it but in the Wilder rematch even more so, it was one of his main keys to victory.
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I don't know, those hoop players might look pretty bad in the ring. I remember watching the great Michael Jordan playing baseball and thinking how he didn't look right running from base to base. I've never seen a man as big as fury be able to move like that, it's extraordinary. Lennox Lewis' biggest flaw was his footwork, he looked slow as fuck, clumsy too, riddick bowe was actively discouraged from following after Ali by Eddie Futch with the logic that anyone who turns pro at 230 will be way too heavy to do all that dancing as he matures. Personally, I think anything above 220 is losing too many things for the weight to really be of value. The wrestling, lets face it, Wilder was just too inexperienced to know what was happening and he did nothing to avoid it. Complete amateur, I'm sorry. And yes, the right ref may contain that holding and wrestling. I'm just saying that other men have fought giants and the giants they fought actually took the most punishment, whether that be Joe Louis and Carnera/Simon or Dempsey and Willard. Mike Tyson however is so short and stubby, I could see him having major problems with someone as big as fury. The one myth of Mike was how he beat up the bigger guys, he actually had a tougher time when his opponent was over 6-3 or so.
 
mozfonky said:
I don't know, those hoop players might look pretty bad in the ring. I remember watching the great Michael Jordan playing baseball and thinking how he didn't look right running from base to base. I've never seen a man as big as fury be able to move like that, it's extraordinary. Lennox Lewis' biggest flaw was his footwork, he looked slow as fuck, clumsy too, riddick bowe was actively discouraged from following after Ali by Eddie Futch with the logic that anyone who turns pro at 230 will be way too heavy to do all that dancing as he matures. Personally, I think anything above 220 is losing too many things for the weight to really be of value. The wrestling, lets face it, Wilder was just too inexperienced to know what was happening and he did nothing to avoid it. Complete amateur, I'm sorry. And yes, the right ref may contain that holding and wrestling. I'm just saying that other men have fought giants and the giants they fought actually took the most punishment, whether that be Joe Louis and Carnera/Simon or Dempsey and Willard. Mike Tyson however is so short and stubby, I could see him having major problems with someone as big as fury. The one myth of Mike was how he beat up the bigger guys, he actually had a tougher time when his opponent was over 6-3 or so.
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I don't know how some of these top basketball players would look in the ring as far as their movement goes but on the court some of them are so coordinated and agile they glide around. I've seen fights break out though and they look terrible throwing punches and fighting in general.

My point though about Fury vs the ATGs is the x factor, at least for me, being how Fury uses his size and weight advantage which he'd have over all of them. That variable can't easily be predicted or controlled for in reality. As soon as his opponents try to fight it off and resist all that leaning to make them carry his weight they'll only drain themselves even quicker. They would have to deny him from tying up and grappling/leaning which would be very hard to do given his quickness and dimensions to get ahold of them, assuming hypothetically that's used as one of his main keys to victory.
 
Kovalev's "Man Bag" said:
I don't know how some of these top basketball players would look in the ring as far as their movement goes but on the court some of them are so coordinated and agile they glide around. I've seen fights break out though and they look terrible throwing punches and fighting in general. My point though about Fury vs the ATGs is the x factor, at least for me, being how Fury uses his size and weight advantage which he'd have over all of them. That variable can't easily be predicted or controlled for in reality. As soon as his opponents try to fight it off and resist all that leaning to make them carry his weight they'll only drain themselves even quicker. They would have to deny him from tying up and grappling/leaning which would be very hard to do given his quickness and dimensions to get ahold of them assuming that's one of his main keys to victory hypothetically.
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I just watched a bit of Louis vs. Simon, the 255 giant, simon didn't look like he was trying to use his weight to tire louis but it's a little harder to do with dynamite coming back at you.

Basketball players/fights look wierd, Kareem Abdul Jabbar doesn't look very good when he punched that one guy, slow compared to a boxer, and Kareem was taught by the greatest martial artist to ever live and seemed to look like an amateur, even cowardly sucker punching the guy and moving away from retaliation, kind of a punk move. They are big men though, I used to think the Wilt/ali fight was a joke but it would have been interesting, Wilt was phenomenal as an athlete.
 
mozfonky said:
I just watched a bit of Louis vs. Simon, the 255 giant, simon didn't look like he was trying to use his weight to tire louis but it's a little harder to do with dynamite coming back at you.
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You simply can't tire prime Joe Louis on the inside if you are taller than him. He shines when he is the smaller man in there. It gives more leverage to his deadly punches and combinations.
 
mozfonky said:
I just watched a bit of Louis vs. Simon, the 255 giant, simon didn't look like he was trying to use his weight to tire louis but it's a little harder to do with dynamite coming back at you.

Basketball players/fights look wierd, Kareem Abdul Jabbar doesn't look very good when he punched that one guy, slow compared to a boxer, and Kareem was taught by the greatest martial artist to ever live and seemed to look like an amateur, even cowardly sucker punching the guy and moving away from retaliation, kind of a punk move. They are big men though, I used to think the Wilt/ali fight was a joke but it would have been interesting, Wilt was phenomenal as an athlete.
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It would be harder to do if serious heat was coming back at them but optimally they would still have to neutralize Fury from using his grappling combined with his size/weight advantage to drain them by not allowing him to tie up. The large heavyweights we've seen that are the best at making their opponents carry their weight like that are used to training that tactic (grappling) in camp. Wlad didn't just start grabbing and leaning on guys he worked on that in camp and perfected it over the years in his fights.

Have you ever seen a boxer/striker try to wrestle/grapple for extended periods of time? Their arms don't last long, they tire out quickly. This is why the best in-fighters in boxing trained grappling (Duran and others, Duran had his own wrestling coach at one point) to condition their arms and lungs for it. I'm sure Fury grapples in sparring often as did Wlad. Interesting info about Wilt, I didn't know some of that stuff.
 
Kovalev's "Man Bag" said:
It would be harder to do if serious heat was coming back at them but optimally they would still have to neutralize Fury from using his grappling combined with his size/weight advantage to drain them by not allowing him to tie up. The large heavyweights we've seen that are the best at making their opponents carry their weight like that are used to training that tactic (grappling) in camp. Wlad didn't just start grabbing and leaning on guys he worked on that in camp and perfected it over the years in his fights.

Have you ever seen a boxer/striker try to wrestle/grapple for extended periods of time? Their arms don't last long, they tire out quickly. This is why the best in-fighters in boxing trained grappling (Duran and others, Duran had his own wrestling coach at one point) to condition their arms and lungs for it. I'm sure Fury grapples in sparring often as did Wlad. Interesting info about Wilt, I didn't know some of that stuff.
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ya, it's taxing for sure. Ali was great at it and even managed to treat foreman like he treated some smaller guys. It's one of the things I think Eddie Futch may have been referring to when getting Zack Clayton blocked from reffing the thrilla in manila, he let ali do some questionable stuff and he gave a fast count to foreman. Wilder was actually bending over for fury, so fury obliged him, just not very smart fighter that wilder. He still probably thinks the suit was the root of his problems.
 
Badr Hari said:
You simply can't tire prime Joe Louis on the inside if you are taller than him. He shines when he is the smaller man in there. It gives more leverage to his deadly punches and combinations.
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i actually thought he had something personal against big guys the way he fought them, i always felt bad for old Primo who really had little more than his mob connections.
 
mozfonky said:
Joe Louis beat the big guys like carnera and that one giant, shit, forget his name, but he beat him twice, badly.
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Max Baer?

Or maybe even his brother, Buddy Baer....Max was much better and fought Louis twice i think maybe even 3 times
 
Yacob said:
Max Baer?

Or maybe even his brother, Buddy Baer....Max was much better and fought Louis twice i think maybe even 3 times
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they werent that heavy though were they? I know buddy was tall but he didn't look huge. Buddy put him down, max hurt him right? maybe he put him down too. Joe probably is second after patterson for getting knocked down. i was referring to the 255 pound abe simon and primo carnera, both giants of the time. It's interesting but wilder almost won the first fight at 211, that had to be one of the lightest weights of a heavyweight championship fight in awhile. I always maintained the excess pounds don't do much. Riddick Bowe still insists that the 215 pound herbie hide hurt him worse than anyone else. Fury vs. Louis is a fight I'm not really sitting around wondering if Joe could win. He'd fought guys as heavy and big, maybe not as agile but fury hasn't showed me he was this killer puncher yet. One fight where he only landed a few clean punches and tired a guy down and knocked him down with glancing shots and body blows doesn't show me he's a power puncher. I think it would have been more convincing if he were more accurate, a good fight but not quite enough for me to put him against most of the ATG's.
 
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mozfonky said:
they werent that heavy though were they? I know buddy was tall but he didn't look huge. Buddy put him down, max hurt him right? maybe he put him down too. Joe probably is second after patterson for getting knocked down.
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Buddy was the big one, he was 6'6 and probably 240ish. Max was only 6'2 and 220 but he hit hard as fuck and was literally sort of crazy in a way that'd be very difficult to deal with if you weren't ready

Truthfully i don't know exact specifics but Buddy scoring a knockdown kinda rings a bell. I think Max held his own quite well too but I'll look it up in a minute

I can't think of any other huge guy but again I'll go through and check....just because it's interesting
 
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