which is harder to get a judo black belt or decent mastery of wrestling?

[GrapplingDummy**]

just out of curiosity, which do u think is harder to attain a decent mastery of judo or a decent mastery of wrestling? as in the techniques and what not.

There are no blets in wrestling so it all depends on how you define "mastery". However, getting a BB in Judo is not terribly hard.

 

[RG42186]

They're two completely different games because of the gi. I wrestled for awhile and then transitioned to judo, and the gi really fucked me up for awhile. If you're doing it to train MMA, go with wrestling. If you're doing it for practical self-defense purposes, you prob. shouldn't do either of them (However, the judo gi work comes in pretty handy if you have to deal with drunk, pop-collar frat boys). I do judo just because I have more fun doing it. That's it.

 

[wildman1717]

Exactly. Though many of us judokas on here compete, the people who compete at the very top have often spent their lives becoming really proficient attaining a true "mastery," starting when they are small children and usually peaking between the ages of 22-30.

While someone might make black belt, in judo, this doesn't necessarily translate into "mastery." For most Judo schools, the bb is considered the beginning, rather than the end of a journey. It doesn't apply any total mastery, especially at the shodan level.

So, excluding belts, let's look at the Olympics, each country's best, as an indicator of a level of mastery. Most of them have spent their entire lives training, often almost every day (this is certainly the case in Japan).

In order to reach a true level of mastery, in judo and wrestling, despite some exceptions, generally I think people have to start very, very, young and train intensely until they are around 22-30 because after that teh body starts to go down hill. It is a short window of time and a level that most of us will never reach.

Very true.

 

[georgejjr]

You can get a black belt in judo just for showing up at the dojo for 10 years and refereeing. A black belt in judo just means you're now officially a student.

Generally to be considered a master in judo you have to be someone who competes at the international level (or who has competed at that level). Judo is like wrestling, belts mean nothing, competition results mean everything. No one cares what belt you are, everyone cares what tournaments you placed at.

As to which is harder to learn, depends upon the individual. Some folks learn one easier, others learn the other. Its like asking if its easier to make the NBA or the NFL ... depends on the guy.

As for the olympics, some weight divisions are harder in judo, some are harder in wrestling.

 

[debo]

[edit] Catch wrestling and judo
Although catch wrestling did not normally include kicks and blows, it is credited as one of the two disciplines involved in one of the 20th century's first major cross-cultural clash of styles in Martial Arts, occurring between the American catch wrestler Ad Santel and the Japanese Tokugoro Ito, a 5th degree black belt in Judo.

The match in 1914 was one between two prime representatives of their respective crafts, Ad Santel was the World Light Heavyweight Champion in catch wrestling while Tokugoro Ito claimed to be the World Judo Champion. Santel defeated Ito and went on to be the self proclaimed World Judo Champion. The response from Jigoro Kano's Kodokan was swift and came in the form of another challenger, 4th degree black belt Daisuke Sakai. Santel, however, still defeated the Kodokan Judo representative.

The Kodokan tried to stop the legendary hooker by sending men like 5th degree black belt Reijiro Nagata (who was defeated by Santel by TKO). Santel also drew with 5th degree black belt Hikoo Shoji. The challenge matches stopped after Santel gave up on the claim of being the World Judo Champion in 1921 in order to pursue a career in full time professional wrestling. Although Tokugoro Ito avenged his loss to Santel with a choke, thus setting the record between them at 1-1, official Kodokan representatives proved unable to imitate Ito's success. Just as Ito was the only Japanese judoka to overcome Santel, Santel was ironically the only Western catch-wrestler on record as having a win over Ito, who also regularly challenged other grappling styles.

The impact of these performances on Japan was immense. The Japanese were fascinated by the European form of catch wrestling and a steady stream of Japanese fighters travelled to Europe in order to either participate in various tournaments or to learn catch wrestling at European schools such as Billy Riley's Snake Pit in Wigan, England.

 

[debo]

Catch wrestling and mixed martial arts
Karl Gotch was a legendary catch wrestler and a student of Billy Riley's Snake Pit. Gotch taught catch wrestling to Japanese professional wrestlers in 1970's to students including Antonio Inoki, Tatsumi Fujinami, Hiro Matsuda, Osamu Kido, Satoru Sayama (the legendary Tiger Mask) and Yoshiaki Fujiwara.

Starting from 1976, one of these professional wrestlers, Antonio Inoki, hosted a series of mixed martial arts bouts against the champions of other disciplines. This resulted in unprecedented popularity of the clash-of-styles bouts in Japan. His matches showcased catch wrestling moves like the Sleeper hold, Cross arm breaker, Seated armbar, Indian deathlock and Keylock.

Karl Gotch's students formed the original Universal Wrestling Federation (Japan) in 1984 which gave rise to shoot-style matches. The UWF movement was led by catch wrestlers and gave rise to the mixed martial arts boom in Japan. Catch wrestling forms the base of Japan's martial art of shoot wrestling. Japanese professional wrestling and a majority of the Japanese fighters from Pancrase, Shooto and the now defunct RINGS bear links to catch wrestling.

Notable mixed martial artists with traceable catch-wrestling links are numerous; among them are Kazushi Sakuraba, who trained in the UWF Snake Pit--a gym founded by catch wrestler Billy Robinson--as well as Masa Funaki and Ken Shamrock, both of whom trained under Karl Gotch and Yoshiaki Fujiwara. Some other important mixed martial artists with significant ties to catch include Josh Barnett, Frank Shamrock, Kiyoshi Tamura,Ikuhisa Minowa, Karo Parisyan, and Erik Paulson. Ultimately, however, there are far too many mixed martial artists with ties to catch wrestling to compile anything resembling an exhaustive list of all such fighters.

It may also be worth noting that the term no holds barred was used originally to describe the wrestling method prevalent in catch wrestling tournaments during the late 19th century wherein no wrestling holds were banned from the competition, regardless of how dangerous they might be. The term was applied to mixed martial arts matches, especially at the advent of the Ultimate Fighting Championship.


[edit] The influence of catch wrestling

 

[UrbanSavage**]

I believe Judo is harder to master, it's like wrestling + all the gi throws + submissions.

I'm only a BJJ guy and I'm just going based on the fact that I've pinned wrestlers in my weight class when I trained with the local community college. (despite having never wrestled, just learning stuff at BJJ), but I've never come close to throwing a judo guy, when I've trained with them.

 

[Rinksterk**]

You can get a black belt in judo just for showing up at the dojo for 10 years and refereeing. A black belt in judo just means you're now officially a student.

In what country? You usually get black in about a couple depending on where you're at. In Japan or Korea its usually about a year. 10 years is a lot. You'll be far past the level of 1st degree by then.

Your second sentence is correct though.

 

[Rinksterk**]

I believe Judo is harder to master, it's like wrestling + all the gi throws + submissions.

I'm only a BJJ guy and I'm just going based on the fact that I've pinned wrestlers in my weight class when I trained with the local community college. (despite having never wrestled, just learning stuff at BJJ), but I've never come close to throwing a judo guy, when I've trained with them.

I think its the smaller intricate details that makes judo harder to learn. I personally its because of the gi.

And lol at all the people getting butt hurt over this shit. If the techniques are easier to master, doesn't that make it a more efficient art?

 

[Tim Goodwin]

I think its the smaller intricate details that makes judo harder to learn. I personally its because of the gi.

And lol at all the people getting butt hurt over this shit. If the techniques are easier to master, doesn't that make it a more efficient art?

There's still a ton of small intricate details in wrestling though so it goes both ways.

 

[TheBigS]

Generally to be considered a master in judo you have to be someone who competes at the international level (or who has competed at that level). Judo is like wrestling, belts mean nothing, competition results mean everything. No one cares what belt you are, everyone cares what tournaments you placed at.

As to which is harder to learn, depends upon the individual. Some folks learn one easier, others learn the other. Its like asking if its easier to make the NBA or the NFL ... depends on the guy.

This is a good point because there are many people, like myself, who have been at the brown belt level in Judo forever because we care more about competing than belt progression and haven't gotten around to working towards testing for it. Competition results are much more important in Judo than belt rank.

As a few people have pointed out though, the same could also be said of wrestling.

To get to the highest levels of each of these sports requires a ridiculous level of discipline, skill, and commitment. I don't think it would be fair to the top practitioners of each to say that one is EASIER to get to than the other. It oxymoronic and nonsensical to say its "easier" to get to a level that less than 1% of people who spend their lives competing will ever reach.

 

[SlappySquirrel]

IMHO. It depends on the Judo instructor(s) and whether they are gearing it toward USAJudo (olympic judo) or MMA/grappling tourneys. Honestly, I do both. I wrestled in high school and I have a brown belt with black stripe in Judo (USJA). I also try to train in BJJ when I can.

However, in my experience wrestlers are in far better condition and the takedowns work really well in MMA. Just my two coppers.

 

[BJJK1]

i heard somewhere that when you've attained a judo black belt, that's when you are ready to learn judo.


what is the purpose of this thread? are you trying to decide whether you want to become a judo black belt, or a "decent wrestling master"?

 

[BJJK1]

i would say its easier to become a black belt in judo then be a champion in wrestling! wrestling is more realistic than judo, wrestling makes you prepared better for mma then judo even though you learn subs in judo ,you need to learn how to convert all those throws over to a no gi situation ,look at a good example karo parisayan is a judo master but all his losses have been to wrestlers.sean sherk champion wrestler,diego sanches state champ in high school,gsp works out with the canadian national wrestling team.so i believe wrestling is more difficult!

more realistic than judo? yea, i guess people are just walking around in singlets all over the place.

because ONE judo fighter lost to couple of wrestlers that means ALL judo fighters will lose to wrestlers?

karo didn't lose because he's a judoka, and they are wrestlers...he lost because he didn't have proper conditioning and gassed out. Karo beat serra and nick diaz, does that mean BJJ is less effective than judo? Karo also beat Burkman and Fickett(both wrestlers...if you didn't know), so i guess that means Judo is > wrestling. if judo is both greater and lesser than wrestling, i guess there should be a rip in the time space continuum by your logic.

 

[georgejjr]

In what country? You usually get black in about a couple depending on where you're at. In Japan or Korea its usually about a year. 10 years is a lot. You'll be far past the level of 1st degree by then.

Your second sentence is correct though.

As you say, in Japan or Korea you can get it in a year (usually 2 in Japan), but you have to compete to do so (defeat 6 other ikkyu usually). If you don't compete it generally takes longer in most countries, Japan included. But you can get a shodan without ever doing any shia, or even any randori, if you're patient. If you're a good referee you can get to high ranks without ever doing any randori or shia.

No one asks what belt someone is when they walk into the dojo (or into competition). They usually do ask if you've competed, and where ... which tells you all you have to know about the relative importance of rank and competition results in judo.

 

[brucew22]

I'd say it is harder to get a gold medal in wrestling than it is to get a gold medal in judo.

That's just my opinion though.

absolutely agree. The competition level in wrestling is way tougher, as is the caliber of the athletes.

 

[RadBoy]

Silly question....we need a separate wasteland for all of the judo vs. bjj, jjj v. bjj, judo vs. jjj, and wrestling vs. all of the above threads.

I agree!

 

[Cardio King]

Yes, but only in the US, and maybe in Iran and Mongolia.

In the rest of the world is equal hard (like un russia) or the opposite (west europe, japan, korea and so on)

Do you know how well repuatated Japan is for it's Olympic Wrestling team? You sir, are dumb!

 

[Thalion]

Do you know how well repuatated Japan is for it's Olympic Wrestling team? You sir, are dumb!

Japanese wrestling team is very good (on lower weight class) but Judo is still their national sport and way way bigger than wrestling
Every single school from kids to college have a competitive Judo team and Judo with Baseball is the most importan sport in japan.

 

[REKillzone]

i loves me the judo throws