Which BJJer has the best Judo?

[Ryo]

I'm pretty sure if you called him a "BJJ Guy" to his face, he would probably throw you on your head.

 

[Neuro]

man i start some good threads sometimes.

 

[Jiujitsunoob]

I'm pretty sure if you called him a "BJJ Guy" to his face, he would probably throw you on your head.

He's definitely first and foremost a Judo guy (and thats why I didn't include him on my list), but that said, he does train jiu jitsu.

There are several articles where he talks about it, so I don't think being called a "BJJ guy" is such a terrible insult. Here is a link to one such article:

Flavio Canto on the Guard and the Turtle in Judo - No BS MMA and Martial Arts

 

[Ryo]

I was not referring to Flavio Canto. I was referring to Georges Mehdi.

But Canto never said anywhere that he trains Jiu-Jitsu. It said that his teachers circulated in both Judo and Jiu-Jitsu circles. He holds no rank in the art other then an honorary Blackbelt given to him because he took bronze at the Olympics.

He trains Judo, but he is very open minded.

 

[Drew Foster]

IMO, Roger, Xande, and Jacare.

I think Roger and Jacare land more Judo throws in big tourneys, but Xande basically used Judo to beat Roger before, and he and Saulo both have amazing standing grappling.

 

[Drew Foster]

I'm pretty sure if you called him a "BJJ Guy" to his face, he would probably throw you on your head.

LO fuckin L.

 

[shouldercharge]

canto has never formally trained bjj,the closest being going to jiu-jitsu academies to roll.

 

[PerfectBalance]

for all around game have to give It to Megaton, since he's the only world class judoka/BJJ guy and the fact that his name comes from the power of his takedowns. Nothings better then having a guy with no air in his lungs and your on top in sidemount.

 

[sdjudoka]

Mehdi ditched the Gracies to go train with Kimura

 

[ILikeBread]

canto has never formally trained bjj,the closest being going to jiu-jitsu academies to roll.

My understanding is that many of Canto's instructors were not pure Judoka, but also had experience with BJJ. Could be wrong.

 

[judogido]

Maybe the question should have been which competiors that train primarily in BJJ and have no "pure judo" background have great stand-up/tachiwaza.

You'd therefore have to rule out the Camarillo Bros, Rhadi, Canto, Komuro etc. They are all judoka who transitioned to BJJ.

BJJers that transitioned to or cross-trained in judo is different. Jacare is one that springs to mind - I've seen some nice tachiwaza from him.

 

[redaxe]

Flavio Canto doesn't do BJJ, he does Judo and has great newaza skills.

Have you seen his newaza? You think he learned that omoplata in Judo training? He used straight up BJJ in that match with Travis Stevens that I posted. He repeatedly pulls guard, making it look like a "failed sacrifice throw"...

 

[fourfif**]

Have you seen his newaza? You think he learned that omoplata in Judo training? He used straight up BJJ in that match with Travis Stevens that I posted. He repeatedly pulls guard, making it look like a "failed sacrifice throw"...

canto has never formally trained bjj,the closest being going to jiu-jitsu academies to roll.

hmm... looks like he's a judo guy rolls in bjj sometimes. i'm confused.

 

[shouldercharge]

Have you seen his newaza? You think he learned that omoplata in Judo training? He used straight up BJJ in that match with Travis Stevens that I posted. He repeatedly pulls guard, making it look like a "failed sacrifice throw"...

ive been taught the omoplata in judo,but my instructor has trained in bjj.

The two arts are so closely related some times its hard to tell where one finishes and the other begins.
as my instructor says its all grappling the techniques are the same its just the ruleset of the game that determine how you apply them.
his pet hate are jiujitsu guys who bitch about learning throws in jiujitsu or judoka who refuse to learn ne-waza.

 

[J Sho]

Have you seen his newaza? You think he learned that omoplata in Judo training? He used straight up BJJ in that match with Travis Stevens that I posted. He repeatedly pulls guard, making it look like a "failed sacrifice throw"...

the omoplata was not invented by BJJ players, it is a pre-existing judo move (referred to either as Ashi-garami, sankaku-garami or ude-garami).

All submissions, throws and holds in BJJ can be found in Judo (and predate their emergence and usage in BJJ) - omoplatas, guard, mount, sidemount, half guard sweeps, chokes, locks, strangles, triangles, everything. Can any single move be claimed to have been invented wholesale by a BJJ player?

There are only a limited number of ways to manipulate the body after all, the omoplata is even found in other non judo/jiu jitsu lineage arts such as silat.

It all comes down to semantics. Flavio is a judo player, he may have friends who are jitsuka, he may train with jitsuka, he may roll with elite jitsuka, he may even have competed in bjj tournaments at lower belts, but he is a judoka first and foremost - he competes in judo, his training partners are judoka, his teachers are judoka.

He excels in ground work, to him, that is newaza, to you and i, that is BJJ, but it is just semantics - his being good at newaza no more makes him a "BJJ guy" than Roger (who does some x-training) doing a decent Uchi Mata at the Mundials makes him a Judoka. When Xande and Jacare beat Roger by takedowns, did people point at them and say, wow, these Judoka just won the BJJ mundials?

He did not use "straight up BJJ" in that match, nothing he did does not exist within judo or the kosen rule variant. He played the rules to get the match to the floor, but that doesn't make him a jitsuka any more than double legging Travis for the win would have made him a wrestler.

Most movements and actions in grappling arts can be found (albeit maybe with slight variations) in other grappling arts. Take the double leg for example, f i am a jitsuka with a great baiana or a judoka with a great morote geri - would you call me a wrestler?

If the thread is entitled which BJJer has the best Judo, how can Canto be included when he is a full time professional athlete in another sport who doesn't compete in BJJ?

 

[J Sho]

Maybe the question should have been which competiors that train primarily in BJJ and have no "pure judo" background have great stand-up/tachiwaza.

You'd therefore have to rule out the Camarillo Bros, Rhadi, Canto, Komuro etc. They are all judoka who transitioned to BJJ.

BJJers that transitioned to or cross-trained in judo is different. Jacare is one that springs to mind - I've seen some nice tachiwaza from him.

Yes, perhaps we can segment people thus:

*People who have a background in Judo and started x-training in BJJ subsequently.
Rhadi, the Camarillos, Royler and Megaton (iirc), Leo Leite, Claudio Calasans

*People who have a background in BJJ and started x-training in Judo subsequently.
Saulo, Roger, Xande, Jacare etc

*People who have a background in Judo and focus on newaza within Judo without explicitly training BJJ to any significant degree
Flavio Canto

*People who have a background in BJJ and focus on takedowns with BJJ without explicitly training Judo.
Any thoughts?

 

[Neuro]

the omoplata was not invented by BJJ players, it is a pre-existing judo move (referred to either as Ashi-garami, sankaku-garami or ude-garami).

All submissions, throws and holds in BJJ can be found in Judo (and predate their emergence and usage in BJJ) - omoplatas, guard, mount, sidemount, half guard sweeps, chokes, locks, strangles, triangles, everything. Can any single move be claimed to have been invented wholesale by a BJJ player?

There are only a limited number of ways to manipulate the body after all, the omoplata is even found in other non judo/jiu jitsu lineage arts such as silat.

It all comes down to semantics. Flavio is a judo player, he may have friends who are jitsuka, he may train with jitsuka, he may roll with elite jitsuka, he may even have competed in bjj tournaments at lower belts, but he is a judoka first and foremost - he competes in judo, his training partners are judoka, his teachers are judoka.

He excels in ground work, to him, that is newaza, to you and i, that is BJJ, but it is just semantics - his being good at newaza no more makes him a "BJJ guy" than Roger (who does some x-training) doing a decent Uchi Mata at the Mundials makes him a Judoka. When Xande and Jacare beat Roger by takedowns, did people point at them and say, wow, these Judoka just won the BJJ mundials?

He did not use "straight up BJJ" in that match, nothing he did does not exist within judo or the kosen rule variant. He played the rules to get the match to the floor, but that doesn't make him a jitsuka any more than double legging Travis for the win would have made him a wrestler.

Most movements and actions in grappling arts can be found (albeit maybe with slight variations) in other grappling arts. Take the double leg for example, f i am a jitsuka with a great baiana or a judoka with a great morote geri - would you call me a wrestler?

your posts are just plain diesel, bro. fuckin' epic.

 

[Mike Wilson Jr.]

*People who have a background in BJJ and focus on takedowns with BJJ without explicitly training Judo.

So basically, wrestlers?

 

[redaxe]

the omoplata was not invented by BJJ players, it is a pre-existing judo move (referred to either as Ashi-garami, sankaku-garami or ude-garami).

All submissions, throws and holds in BJJ can be found in Judo (and predate their emergence and usage in BJJ) - omoplatas, guard, mount, sidemount, half guard sweeps, chokes, locks, strangles, triangles, everything. Can any single move be claimed to have been invented wholesale by a BJJ player?

There are only a limited number of ways to manipulate the body after all, the omoplata is even found in other non judo/jiu jitsu lineage arts such as silat.

It all comes down to semantics. Flavio is a judo player, he may have friends who are jitsuka, he may train with jitsuka, he may roll with elite jitsuka, he may even have competed in bjj tournaments at lower belts, but he is a judoka first and foremost - he competes in judo, his training partners are judoka, his teachers are judoka.

He excels in ground work, to him, that is newaza, to you and i, that is BJJ, but it is just semantics - his being good at newaza no more makes him a "BJJ guy" than Roger (who does some x-training) doing a decent Uchi Mata at the Mundials makes him a Judoka. When Xande and Jacare beat Roger by takedowns, did people point at them and say, wow, these Judoka just won the BJJ mundials?

He did not use "straight up BJJ" in that match, nothing he did does not exist within judo or the kosen rule variant. He played the rules to get the match to the floor, but that doesn't make him a jitsuka any more than double legging Travis for the win would have made him a wrestler.

Most movements and actions in grappling arts can be found (albeit maybe with slight variations) in other grappling arts. Take the double leg for example, f i am a jitsuka with a great baiana or a judoka with a great morote geri - would you call me a wrestler?

If the thread is entitled which BJJer has the best Judo, how can Canto be included when he is a full time professional athlete in another sport who doesn't compete in BJJ?

Obviously he competes at an elite level in Judo and probably doesn't compete at all in BJJ. I'm just saying it takes only a few seconds of watching him fight to see a very heavy BJJ influence in his style of Judo. He pulls guard!!

Sure, the omoplata exists in Judo but it's EXTREMELY rare to see it in a competitive Judo match.

So maybe you can't call him a "BJJ guy," and just "newaza guy" is fitting. But if you don't know anything else about him, and you watch him fight, it doesn't look like a typical Judo vs. Judo match, it totally looks like BJJ vs. Judo.

 

[redaxe]

ive been taught the omoplata in judo,but my instructor has trained in bjj.

The two arts are so closely related some times its hard to tell where one finishes and the other begins.
as my instructor says its all grappling the techniques are the same its just the ruleset of the game that determine how you apply them.
his pet hate are jiujitsu guys who bitch about learning throws in jiujitsu or judoka who refuse to learn ne-waza.

Yeah, I agree. I'm actually the guy who bitches about not getting to learn throws in BJJ class or not getting to learn sweeps in Judo class. Which is why I went to BJJ class last night, and I'm heading out the door for Judo class right now. Cross-training is awesome.