Where do *YOU* think *OTHER* War Room regulars sit on the U.S political spectrum?

[Madmick]

Left:

@Anung Un Rama
@M3t4tr0n - Libertarian Left
@trotsky


Center-Left:

@SouthoftheAndes
@thames

Centrist/Moderate:
@Jack V Savage

Center-Right:
@ripskater


Right:
@Atheist
@ironwolf


Libertarian:

@Rex Kwon Do - Libertarian Right
@Charles Manson


Regurgitates or is sad:

@SouthoftheAndes
@thames

All political decisions could be settled by only taking action when there was unanimity between:

@Charles Manson,
@ripskater,
@Anung Un Rama

 

[Jack V Savage]

You're behind the times. One of the attacks on me lately has been that I'm not truly on the left because I don't think single payer is politically possible or worth fighting for given that, I oppose $15/hr MW, I think the left-wing arguments about campaign finance are misguided, I don't care much about identity politics (except that I oppose white nationalism), and I generally support free trade.

In all of those cases, my differences with the "left" are less about ideology and more about what is true and what is not. For example, it's not that I don't oppose inequality as much as people who want a crazily high MW; it's that I think that it would hurt the people it's designed to help.

 

[Madmick]

You're behind the times. One of the attacks on me lately has been that I'm not truly on the left because I don't think single payer is politically possible or worth fighting for given that, I oppose $15/hr MW, I think the left-wing arguments about campaign finance are misguided, I don't care much about identity politics (except that I oppose white nationalism), and I generally support free trade.

In all of those cases, my differences with the "left" are less about ideology and more about what is true and what is not. For example, it's not that I don't oppose inequality as much as people who want a crazily high MW; it's that I think that it would hurt the people it's designed to help.

You're a DNC parrot, dude. I don't care how you perceive yourself.

 

[Jack V Savage]

You're a DNC parrot, dude. I don't care how you perceive yourself.

That's what I get for thinking that you were worthy of a serious response, I guess.

 

[Madmick]

That's what I get for thinking that you were worthy of a serious response, I guess.

 

[Bald1]

You're behind the times. One of the attacks on me lately has been that I'm not truly on the left because I don't think single payer is politically possible or worth fighting for given that, I oppose $15/hr MW, I think the left-wing arguments about campaign finance are misguided, I don't care much about identity politics (except that I oppose white nationalism), and I generally support free trade.

In all of those cases, my differences with the "left" are less about ideology and more about what is true and what is not. For example, it's not that I don't oppose inequality as much as people who want a crazily high MW; it's that I think that it would hurt the people it's designed to help.

This above is why I like this thread. The question is about perception which is often different from the truth. Most people are pretty hard to pin down and can't be packaged into a neat little box.

 

[Jack V Savage]

This above is why I like this thread. The question is about perception which is often different from the truth. Most people are pretty hard to pin down and can't be packaged into a neat little box.

Well, I think to some extent, people just use it as score-settling (note how Madmick doesn't even appear to notice the contradiction between his attacks--the goal is just to say something negative rather and who cares if it makes sense?). I think if you really want to know where people stand, it's best to just ask a few simple questions to get at *how* they come to hold positions (far more important than *what* positions they hold).

 

[Greoric]

You're a DNC parrot, dude. I don't care how you perceive yourself.

With all things considered, it does make sense. He can be fruitcake on a lot of things, but at least he keeps one toe dunked in reality with his hesitation concerning MW and single payer medicine.

 

[DiogenesOfSinope]

That's what I get for thinking that you were worthy of a serious response, I guess.

I don't mean it as an attack per se good sir, but your positions to seem to be consistently aligned just slightly left to the center of the established power in the United States. Like the policies or not, but 15$ MW and single payer health care are two issues very important to most internet SJWs.

You're behind the times. One of the attacks on me lately has been that I'm not truly on the left because I don't think single payer is politically possible or worth fighting for given that, I oppose $15/hr MW, I think the left-wing arguments about campaign finance are misguided, I don't care much about identity politics (except that I oppose white nationalism), and I generally support free trade.

In all of those cases, my differences with the "left" are less about ideology and more about what is true and what is not. For example, it's not that I don't oppose inequality as much as people who want a crazily high MW; it's that I think that it would hurt the people it's designed to help.

You summed up quite well the reasons I pegged you as a centrist who wouldn't feel out of place on the DLC. I didn't mean it as an insult. (The people I meant to insult as regurgitates were listed separately).

Especially out here on the West Coast in urban centers your positions are very mainstream. Nothing wrong with that. As a man ages, his political inclinations tend to get a bit more conservative. Perhaps you've held your positions while the river's run left?

I became frustrated with politics with the two stolen presidential elections in 2000 and 2004. My best friends were sent to war for jack shit and I was powerless to do shit about it. Even telling them their mission was bullshit seemed too hurtful, so I just stopped talking to them until they finally got out of continual stop losses. By then I had mellowed and put politics aside mostly.

I assume you are probably with the Hillary types who'd rather forget those wars, deny the illegitimacy of the presidential elections, and generally don't want the boat rocked?

But it seems while elections for individual politicians are a waste of time, working for the 15$ minimum wage, LGBT rights, and ending the drug war at the state level have been successful. I am changing careers but once I have that locked down I'll find some group making ballot initiatives. Maybe we can rip out some of the dams on the Columbia and really get the river running left.

 

[Madmick]

With all things considered, it does make sense. He can be fruitcake on a lot of things, but at least he keeps one toe dunked in reality with his hesitation concerning MW and single payer medicine.

True, but taking a dump in an eagle's nest doesn't make a pelican an eagle.

 

[Jack V Savage]

I don't mean it as an attack per se good sir, but your positions to seem to be consistently aligned just slightly left to the center of the established power in the United States. Like the policies or not, but 15$ MW and single payer health care are two issues very important to most internet SJWs.

Fair enough, but you get my point? My difference on those issues is not what I'd call ideological. I like the idea of raising wages for low-skill workers. I just don't think that a really high MW is the way to go. My position on something like a universal monthly cash benefit for children would be to the left of any mainstream politician and most of the leftier-than-thou types here.

The idea I've seen from a lot of the left is "no one with a full-time job should be in poverty." I'd say that no one who can't work through no fault of their own--because they are elderly, children, disabled, just laid off, etc.--should be in poverty, and almost everyone who currently has a full-time job and is in poverty is making more than the poverty level for a single person but is falling behind because they're taking care of someone in those groups (or multiple people).

I became frustrated with politics with the two stolen presidential elections in 2000 and 2004. My best friends were sent to war for jack shit and I was powerless to do shit about it. Even telling them their mission was bullshit seemed too hurtful, so I just stopped talking to them until they finally got out of continual stop losses. By then I had mellowed and put politics aside mostly.

I appreciate this, though I have nothing much to add to it (FYI, I don't believe there's any case that the 2004 election was stolen).

I assume you are probably with the Hillary types who'd rather forget those wars, deny the illegitimacy of the presidential elections, and generally don't want the boat rocked?

A blogger I like said this in the midst of a great post:

Compare, for example, the responses to the elections of our last two presidents. Like many liberals, I will go to my grave believing that if every person who went to the polls in 2000 had succeeded in casting the vote s/he intended, George W. Bush would never have been president. I supported Gore in taking his case to the courts. And, like Gore, once the Supreme Court ruled in Bush’s favor — incorrectly, in my opinion — I dropped the issue.

For liberals, the Supreme Court was the end of the line. Any further effort to replace Bush would have been even less legitimate than his victory. Subsequently, Democrats rallied around President Bush after 9/11, and I don’t recall anyone suggesting that military officers refuse his orders on the grounds that he was not a legitimate president.

This is describing a contrast with the right's attempts to deny the legitimacy of Obama, on basically no grounds at all. I agree 100%. I do believe in the process, if not always the results of it, and while rocking the boat is good, upending a functioning democracy is less so. And, as I said, I don't see a case for Bush's 2004 election not being legitimate.

But it seems while elections for individual politicians are a waste of time, working for the 15$ minimum wage, LGBT rights, and ending the drug war at the state level have been successful. I am changing careers but once I have that locked down I'll find some group making ballot initiatives. Maybe we can rip out some of the dams on the Columbia and really get the river running left.

I would say rather that elections of individual positions are very important, but that they are not the only way to get results, and for some goals, they're less effective than what you're talking about.

What do you have in mind in terms of really getting the river running left? What do you think of the Meidner Plan (Google it if you're not familiar)?

 

[DiogenesOfSinope]

It is nice to discuss things without ad hominem attacks and walls of text.

The Meidner Plan--quickly read wiki-- drove the development of Scandinavian social democracy. Those countries have fared well and make good examples of socialism with lots of market forces and little of the Soviet style oppression. Great. Let's do it.

But Norway at least has single payer. Now, I have no doubt you have a thought out position as to why it is wrong for us here and now, but it would seem to be a Meidner plan style policy the US is ripe for. Yet like centrist democrats you oppose it.

You say stick with the system. Stability is something we take for granted in this country and yes most "radicals" shouldn't be allowed any where near power, but still to acknowledge a stolen election and to justify non-response to it is a strangely, rabidly, moderate position. Most people just shrug it off as a non-event, but deep down the sense of illegitimacy is there. Which results in lower participation. Which makes opportunists like Trump possible.

This is turning into a wall of text.

You ask me what I would advocate now? Well after witnessing our country's non-response to the massive crimes of Bush and Cheney I abandoned advocacy. Forums are fun but that's as far as it goes for me. I vote for my local and state elections and write in jokes for the federal farce. I have become insular. I keep my kids out of public school. I shop from smaller more responsible companies. I grit my teeth and accept most of the feminist stuff my wife says. That's good for my personal hygiene, but it does little for the bigger picture.

I think that our national sickness of greed and narcissism will just have to run its course. Dr. Trump will speed things along and God help us all.

Edit: I think the single most important thing to do is to legalize all natural psychedelics. People would cry a lot and swap partners for a bit, but after things settled down people would be much more pleasant.

 

[Jack V Savage]

It is nice to discuss things without ad hominem attacks and walls of text.

Agreed. Really poisonous culture here.

The Meidner Plan--quickly read wiki-- drove the development of Scandinavian social democracy. Those countries have fared well and make good examples of socialism with lots of market forces and little of the Soviet style oppression. Great. Let's do it.

It's a little more than that. The Meidner Plan is different from the Rehn-Meidner model.

Here's a couple of descriptions (there's an even better one that I can't find):

http://persistenceofpoverty.blogspot.com/p/blog-page_15.html

https://www.dissentmagazine.org/online_articles/a-realistic-radicalism

But Norway at least has single payer. Now, I have no doubt you have a thought out position as to why it is wrong for us here and now, but it would seem to be a Meidner plan style policy the US is ripe for. Yet like centrist democrats you oppose it.

My take on single payer is that it's not possible in the current environment, and the attempts to get it have been an obstacle to real reform (people overreached and ended up with nothing for literally decades). We made major reforms that replicate a lot of the benefits of single payer, and I would prefer continuing to push along those lines--maybe expand Medicaid up the income scale and Medicare down the age scale. Gradual improvements with a realistic chance of happening, though the left is playing defense at the moment.

You say stick with the system. Stability is something we take for granted in this country and yes most "radicals" shouldn't be allowed any where near power, but still to acknowledge a stolen election and to justify non-response to it is a strangely, rabidly, moderate position.

I don't know what to say. I respect the Constitution (I don't worship it as infallible, but it's a proven, successful model that we should be very cautious about blowing up).

Not responding point by point to the rest, but I read it and appreciate it. The shrooms thing is cool. And my take is that things in America are pretty good for most people. There are still a lot of people in poverty and many more who don't feel secure, and I'd like to improve that. But I don't see us living in a dystopian hellhole or anything. I feel very lucky to be an American (and specifically an SF Bay Area resident) in 2016.

 

[Arkain2K]

Now that we have a new President in office, have you guys noticed any changes in the WR regulars' political stance?

I feel like real centrists (or at least center-left and center-right) posters are still hard to find, and we still have the same arguments, but the most interesting thing is that the arguments have now switched side.

 

[brothir]

but the most interesting thing is that the arguments have now switched side.

Do you think they've done so unjustifiably?

 

[Arkain2K]

Do you think they've done so unjustifiably?

No matter if it's Congress or the WR, whenever the arguments on the same subject are completely flipped around by the most partisan people from each side, it's often done so hypocritically.

The sun is hot and the ocean is wet, a pragmatist would understand that doesn't change, no matter which political party the person currently sits in the Oval Office is affiliated with.

 

[DiogenesOfSinope]

Now that we have a new President in office, have you guys noticed any changes in the WR regulars' political stance?

I feel like real centrists (or at least center-left and center-right) posters are still hard to find, and we still have the same arguments, but the most interesting thing is that the arguments have now switched side.

It seems to me the fanatics have kept the same tactics and tone. They are "opposed" now by "moderates" (i.e. proponents of the status quo) who more and more are using the tone and tactics of fanatics.

It is a much more worthy challenge to find consistent points of agreement across the spectrum, because everyone's very good at rhetorical defense of their trench. And each trench has its own news source, most of which no longer attempt to be objective.

But of course these divisions make it easy to rule us all, left, right, and center, by a few.

 

[Jack V Savage]

Now that we have a new President in office, have you guys noticed any changes in the WR regulars' political stance?

I feel like real centrists (or at least center-left and center-right) posters are still hard to find, and we still have the same arguments, but the most interesting thing is that the arguments have now switched side.

I haven't, but we've had a lot less issue-based discussion. I guess that's understandable because of the craziness from the WH. Policy-based discussions are rare because there's so little policy-based news, and ideas-based discussions tend to center around how to respond to having a corrupt buffoon in the WH.

 

[luckyshot]

I haven't been around for that long, so I didn't know on a lot of folks in the OP.

Generally Liberal
@7437
@Anung Un Rama
@Falsedawn
@FinalFight
@Gandhi
@Jack V Savage
@M3t4tr0n
@Madmick
@Gutter Chris

Middle Left
@Overpressure
@KONG-D'SNT-TAP
@JDragon
@KILL KILL
@Octavian
@Ruprecht
@The ScorpioN

Middle?
@JudoThrowFiasco
@panamaican

Middle Right
@irish_thug
@oldshadow

Far Right
@ripskater (Religious extremist right)
@TheComebackKid (Trumptarded right)
@Thurisaz (White power right)

Other Rightists Not in OP:
@TheStruggle (Fascist)
@Palis (Shit posting right)
@KONE (Angry about every damn thing right)
@lecter (Libertarian in theory. He's been more of just a shitposter lately.)

 

[KONE]

@KONE (Angry about every damn thing right)