When you have skin in the game you watch fights differently

[Kyle Stephens]

Did you, as a bettors, did 180 on the topic of breaking the rules? It's a serious question.
Before I started my betting career (short and bitter) I had very firm stance on this - I hated people who straight up cheat in a contest by deliberately OR even unintentional but repeatedly, do something that is clearly a foul.

But after some betting experiences I started to look at these things a whole lot differently. I began to see cheating as a supreme form of dedication to winning. Like the figher is saying "I am all business, I am not here to fuck around, to entertain or to do anything else but to win. And to win using all that I am allowed to do and even what I can't." Like some Miyamoto Musashi shit.

People do the bad ones (not everybody) when they are exhausted every other legal way to win. And the miner fouls (or the well hidden bad ones) typically are done by very crafty old vets.
1. Eyepoking is a sure way to slow down the fight, to set up a big blow, to take your opponent out of the moment make him complain to the ref and lose concentration, to blind him temporary or to gain any other competitve advantage you can imagine.
2. Low blows are sapping your gastank, slow your movement and take time to recover. And nobody takes the 5 min they are allowed.
3. Grabbing the inside of glove of an opponent is a big advantage in grappling situations or even can be in striking.
4. Blows to the back of the head, especially when finishing a hurt opponent, are often not seen or even if seen by the ref - he is not gonna stop the fight in this particular moment. Blows to the back of the head, or even the side and behind the ear (strictly illegal, but I don't recall any ref called that) will fuck with the equilibrium of every opponent, even if he has otherwise a concrete chin.
5. Blows after the bell, especially those disguised as unintentional for being in the midst of a combo.
6. Head-butting can be very subtle, but still do a lot of damage. It's very rare to see a solid headbut that didn't stunned a fighter. Even if it didn't stun the opponent it often open up cuts. It's one of these fouls that can easily be either not seen or not punished. Just the standard 5 min break that nobody really takes.
7. Things that are not fouls, but hardly anybody does like oblique kicks, knees to the body of down opponent. Lifting up grounded opponent in the air just to knee him legally. Going behind the ref and taking the centre of the octagon when the ref breaks a clinch along the fence.

I'm telling you - when you have skin in a fight every bit of advantage that your man squeezes out of situations (legally or not) is appreciated and praised.

There is nothing more depressing than seeing your money slipping away, because your fighter mentally gave up and could at least do a last ditch effort (with some trickery).

Tony vs RDA

It fucking was
Ponz in every fight

GDR hitting after the bell...

...and Aldo

 

[nebulousned]

i never really support it but the degree to which it angers me depends on the fighter

i absolutely hate DC and he intentionally eye poke'd Stipe a lot

 

[Sono07]

I can get the whole drive to win thing. A finger/toe in the cage here and there a cheeky glove grab why not work with what you can right? That being said groin shots are shitty and eye pokes have to be about the worst. I'm down to win some on a gritty fighter but I don't want to see anyone end up like Bisping.

 

[KBE6EKCTAH_CCP]

I am a contrarian so given the amount of obsessive bitching and moaning from Sherdog's soccer moms I have built a tolerance for it.
That being said no, I do not follow TS and his determination to win stuff. Otherwise all rules ever can be broken because of a strong drive to achieve something.

 

[Kyle Stephens]

I see the replies, I get what you guys are saying.
But you are missing something. I posted this in the betting threads because it's connected with betting. I am talking about breaking the rules seen from the point of a BETTOR, someone who placed his money on a fighter. This changes the perspective whole lot. And for me, even when I stopped betting I largely stayed with that changed viewpoint about the cheating stuff. More to this, I see the MMA contest much more like a war than a sport, and in war everything goes.
I had to change the title, cause people are reading just the title and skip the post itself.

 

[Sono07]

I see the replies, I get what you guys are saying.
But you are missing something. I posted this in the betting threads because it's connected with betting. I am talking about breaking the rules seen from the point of a BETTOR, someone who placed his money on a fighter. This changes the perspective whole lot. And for me, even when I stopped betting I largely stayed with that changed viewpoint about the cheating stuff. More to this, I see the MMA contest much more like a war than a sport, and in war everything goes.
I had to change the title, cause people are reading just the title and skip the post itself.

Guess if I had to pull my armchair out I'd say it goes deeper than determination to win by any means. A couple of small things I get pro fighters are used to seeing all sort of cheap fouls. The shots after the bell intentional pokes and groin shots tell me the fighter is looking for a way out against a tough fighter. Groin shots to break pace and hurt cardio, eye pokes to over come range and striking disadvantages. If they look for a cheap way past a tough fighter what other corners are they cutting,? If I've got to ask that question I don't like risking my money on a fighter. The bettor and fan in me agree for once on this.

 

[Kyle Stephens]

If they look for a cheap way past a tough fighter what other corners are they cutting,?

Not agreeing with that sentence. With of course some exceptions, majority of the fights UFC is putting up are fairly well matched. That means you and your opponent have not very big differences in skill, experience, age, etc. Winning comes to being a slight margin better than your opponent on a fight day. You can train your ass off, not cutting any corners, but your opponent does the same. You can even take steroids - your opponent does too. Most of the time there are no big skill gap that can cushion you to always have a good lead in fights, that you don't need to dig deep or to use other illegal methods. And a lot of opponents do these TOO.

Sono, there are cases of cheaters doing it because they don't know better, because they have unchecked aggression issues or just not trained enough - with little to no experience. We are not talking about these here. We are talking about fighters in the UFC with a heathy number of fights on their name. Who fight on high level and are pros.

Fighter who does anything to win, including cheating when necessary, have my utmost respect. This means there are on a mission. To cheat it means you tuned out absolute everything out, except the idea the ref raising your hand at the end.

In the end of the day when I am watching a fight that I already have money on, I don't give a shit about fairness, sport conduct or any other of that sh!t. I care to not lose my rent money and if my guy have to cheat to do it I am all for it.

 

[Sadistics]

David Teymur is the perfect example of what you're describing Kyle. Nicolae Negumereanu is on the opposite end of the cheating spectrum.

 

[Vir_Ars]

I have to confess that i put money in Li to defeat ZDS because of the way he fought out the Jake guillotine, almost taking the eyes of Mathews out, when someone is capable to made such a dirty move, then you know He is serious about winning. I think that mentallity is a very important part in the fight game, i will always take the fighter that is there to win.

 

[Kyle Stephens]

i will always take the fighter that is there to win.

this should be the moto of every mma gambler

 

[Sono07]

Not agreeing with that sentence. With of course some exceptions, majority of the fights UFC is putting up are fairly well matched. That means you and your opponent have not very big differences in skill, experience, age, etc. Winning comes to being a slight margin better than your opponent on a fight day. You can train your ass off, not cutting any corners, but your opponent does the same. You can even take steroids - your opponent does too. Most of the time there are no big skill gap that can cushion you to always have a good lead in fights, that you don't need to dig deep or to use other illegal methods. And a lot of opponents do these TOO.

I agree the majority of UFC fights are evenly matched. As a fan that's cool, as a bettor those are not the fights I want my money on. Looking for mismatches is actively part of my strategy. Jung being an underdog to Khadis despite having a more well rounded game and fight experience. Diaz vs Pettis, Nate had a massive reach advantage and a style Pettis is known to be allergic to ect. I see your point though about that extra effort, and alot of fouls are instinctive pushing off open handed, cage grabs to stop a fall ect. It depends from fighter to fighter with me I guess. I want to put my action on someone who shows up and for the most part looks for every way to win. On the flipside I want to avoid anyone showing up just for the check who maybe more inclined to look for a way out through fouls and even faking being fouled for a short night. One example of the latter being Josh Koscheck faking a illegal knee against Gsp I think? He seemed like the type to cut corners and wilt when things didn't go his way. All that being said I did play GDR because Ladd looked bad and I didn't care if the KO landed before or after the bell xD

 

[Sono07]

Probably got at $5 on the Irish Dragon with the nuts of steel. Anybody who can get up from a Barboza wheel kick straight to the cup earns my respect, although I guess the fight would have been NC in round 1. Either way still can't agree with the eye pokes. If I wanted to watch a bunch of half blind men swing in a cage I'd throw my money away on Bellator.

 

[Kyle Stephens]

@Sono07 We are on the same page.
What I did in the past in my betting days is
1st - looking for a guy that have a considerable edge in the fight,
2nd - be well priced
3rd - making myself sure that this guy/girl will do his best to win from the minute one to the last and in worst case scenario I wanna know that he is ready to go to war or do anything needed to come on top (including cheating)

The cheating aspect is the insurance policy. It's not advisable to pick a guy reling only on that. Well before this shit comes the technical bits.