When it's all said and done, do you think Shohei Ohtani will be considered in the top 5 baseball players of all-time?

[Takes Two To Tango]

He can do it all, he can pitch, hit, hit tons of homeruns, steal tons of bases.

Most complete player ever imo.

And then he did this the other day.

Only player to be in the 50/50 club.

When his career is over, where do you see this guy will be ranked at?

 

[Madmick]

Tabling the "he played against broke plumbers" angle, Ruth has still got anyone.

Ruth was a flat out better overall batter. Ruth was a flat out better overall slugger. Despite that he wasn't the baserunner Ohtani is, Ruth was more successful at getting on base, at least, anyway. Bottom line, Ruth was the best hitter-- the best, not among the best-- in the league every single season from 1919-1931 except in 1922 & 1925 when he was injured part of those seasons. He was arguably the best in 1918 and 1932, too. Nobody else has ever come close to matching that feat. Greatest hitter of all time.

As great as Ohtani has been this year, at the plate, overall, he is second fiddle to Aaron Judge.

And as for pitching?

https://www.mlb.com/news/babe-ruth-s-top-10-career-statistics-c163792958

7. Ruth racked up a 0.87 ERA over 31 career postseason innings, which ranks fourth all-time among pitchers with at least 30 innings of postseason experience. That included a 29 2/3-inning World Series scoreless streak that held up as a Fall Classic record until 1961, when fellow Hall of Famer Whitey Ford surpassed Ruth's mark.

8. Ruth's best pitching performance came in 1916, when he struck out 170 batters without allowing a home run. That remains a Red Sox franchise record for the most strikeouts in any season without surrendering a homer and ranks as the fifth-most overall in AL/NL history. Only Rube Waddell (232 strikeouts), Walter Johnson (228), Jack Coombs (224) and Frank Smith (171) tallied more whiffs without serving up a long ball.

In that year, 1916, he was 5th in Wins, 3rd in WAR, 3rd in ERA & ERA+, 3rd in Strikeouts, 2nd in Shutouts, 16th in FIP & WHIP, etc. To put it simply, he was the second best pitcher in the league that year behind only Grover Alexander.

Comparatively, in 2022, his best pitching season, Ohtani was only 4th in Cy Young voting in just the AL. For the league, he was 8th in Wins, 3rd in WAR, 6th in ERA, 5th in ERA+, 6th in Strikeouts, didn't pitch a Shutout, 44th in FIP, 35th in WHIP. I'd guess the baseball hardcores in here might put him in the Top 5 starting pitchers for that season.

 

[Takes Two To Tango]

Tabling the "he played against broke plumbers" angle, Ruth has still got anyone.

Ruth was a flat out better overall batter. Ruth was a flat out better overall slugger. Despite that he wasn't the baserunner Ohtani is, Ruth was more successful at getting on base, at least, anyway. Bottom line, Ruth was the best hitter-- the best, not among the best-- in the league every single season from 1919-1931 except in 1922 & 1925 when he was injured part of those seasons. He was arguably the best in 1918 and 1932, too. Nobody else has ever come close to matching that feat. Greatest hitter of all time.

As great as Ohtani has been this year, at the plate, overall, he is second fiddle to Aaron Judge.

And as for pitching?

https://www.mlb.com/news/babe-ruth-s-top-10-career-statistics-c163792958

In that year, 1916, he was 5th in Wins, 3rd in WAR, 3rd in ERA & ERA+, 3rd in Strikeouts, 2nd in Shutouts, 16th in FIP & WHIP, etc.

To put it simply, he was the second best pitcher in the league that year behind only Grover Alexander.

Thanks for sharing your insight. That's a fair assessment on your part.

But I'm talking Ohtani when he's all said and done, it's obviously hypothetical. But will see how Ohtani does in the next 5-6 years. I don't even think he's in his prime.

 

[Madmick]

Thanks for sharing your insight. That's a fair assessment on your part.

But I'm talking Ohtani when he's all said and done, it's obviously hypothetical. But will see how Ohtani does in the next 5-6 years. I don't even think he's in his prime.

I don't know where he'll finish. I was just providing context for the GOAT candidacy. Looks out of reach to me, but I don't really think it's fair to compare players from today to back then, either.

You don't think he's in his prime? How long does it take to reach that in baseball? In basketball, players are already in their prime by their third season. In football it depends on the position. QBs have a steeper learning curve, they used to take longer, but most others are in their prime by that third season, and it tends to not last as long as basketball primes.

 

[Takes Two To Tango]

I don't know where he'll finish. I was just providing context for the GOAT candidacy. Looks out of reach to me, but I don't really think it's fair to compare players from today to back then, either.

You don't think he's in his prime? How long does it take to reach that in baseball? In basketball, players are already in their prime by their third season. In football it depends on the position. QBs have a steeper learning curve, they used to take longer, but most others are in their prime by that third season, and it tends to not last as long as basketball primes.

He's in the cusp of his prime, I'd say when he 32 he'll be at his prime. But yeah he could very well be in his prime also.

 

[Madmick]

He's in the cusp of his prime, I'd say when he 32 he'll be at his prime. But yeah he could very well be in his prime also.

32 sounds like a very old age to be starting a prime. Usually that's when a decline has already begun. At 30, I suspect he's already well into his prime productive seasons.

 

[PRESIDENT TRUMP]

Ruth only played against white guys from Nebraska. Hard to compare eras.

 

[Takes Two To Tango]

32 sounds like a very old age to be starting a prime. Usually that's when a decline has already begun. At 30, I suspect he's already well into his prime productive seasons.

Ok I take it back, he's in his prime now.

 

[Natural Order]

Anybody with eyes already knows that skill wise, he's Top 10 ever to do it.

Statistically, who knows....if he stays healthy and rips another 8-10 seasons like this one......yikes. As others have noted, he's not 25 though so how long he can go will be the question.

 

[Kowboy On Sherdog]

Shoot... Baseball has been around so long that you can do a Top 20 and feel like you left out another 10-20 that could also be ranked.

 

[Foppa21]

Tabling the "he played against broke plumbers" angle, Ruth has still got anyone.

Ruth was a flat out better overall batter. Ruth was a flat out better overall slugger. Despite that he wasn't the baserunner Ohtani is, Ruth was more successful at getting on base, at least, anyway. Bottom line, Ruth was the best hitter-- the best, not among the best-- in the league every single season from 1919-1931 except in 1922 & 1925 when he was injured part of those seasons. He was arguably the best in 1918 and 1932, too. Nobody else has ever come close to matching that feat. Greatest hitter of all time.

As great as Ohtani has been this year, at the plate, overall, he is second fiddle to Aaron Judge.

And as for pitching?

https://www.mlb.com/news/babe-ruth-s-top-10-career-statistics-c163792958

In that year, 1916, he was 5th in Wins, 3rd in WAR, 3rd in ERA & ERA+, 3rd in Strikeouts, 2nd in Shutouts, 16th in FIP & WHIP, etc. To put it simply, he was the second best pitcher in the league that year behind only Grover Alexander.

Comparatively, in 2022, his best pitching season, Ohtani was only 4th in Cy Young voting in just the AL. For the league, he was 8th in Wins, 3rd in WAR, 6th in ERA, 5th in ERA+, 6th in Strikeouts, didn't pitch a Shutout, 44th in FIP, 35th in WHIP. I'd guess the baseball hardcores in here might put him in the Top 5 starting pitchers for that season.

Come on... Vote ;-)

 

[surgeyou1]

Babe Ruth would lose his mind seeing what Shohei Ohtani can do. Not even a comparison. He's the greatest baseball talent ever.

 

[volodya]

32 sounds like a very old age to be starting a prime. Usually that's when a decline has already begun. At 30, I suspect he's already well into his prime productive seasons.

Most experts agree that your "prime" ends at the exact age Fedor was when he tapped to Werdum.

Science bro

 

[Madmick]

Babe Ruth would lose his mind seeing what Shohei Ohtani can do. Not even a comparison. He's the greatest baseball talent ever.

Why? You realize the year Ruth hit 60 HR there wasn't even 162 game seasons, yet, right? He did that in 151 games.

Ruth's 1921 season stacks up almost perfectly to Ohtani's current season in game total right now.

Ruth, 1921 vs. Ohtani, 2024
152 vs. 153, Games
.378 vs. .301, Batting Average
.512 vs. .383, On Base Percentage
693 vs. 701, Plate Appearances
177 vs. 128, Runs
201 vs. 184, Hits
44 vs. 34, Doubles
16 vs. 7, Triples
59 vs. 53, Home Runs
168 vs. 123, Runs Batted In
145 vs. 78, Walks
81 vs. 160, Strikeouts
17 vs. 55, Steals
457 vs. 391, Total Bases

 

[Takes Two To Tango]

Ohtani is a man possessed.

 

[mjmj]

There's just no way 1920s stats can or should be compared with todays stats. The balls were different, fielding wasn't nearly as good, pitching was vastly different... It goes on and on.

 

[Takes Two To Tango]

There's just no way 1920s stats can or should be compared with todays stats. The balls were different, fielding wasn't nearly as good, pitching was vastly different... It goes on and on.

Those are certainly valid arguments.

 

[Madmick]

There's just no way 1920s stats can or should be compared with todays stats. The balls were different, fielding wasn't nearly as good, pitching was vastly different... It goes on and on.

There was also spitballs, cleating, pitchers throwing it at your head without fear of consequences, no sophisticated PEDs, no modern travel, no modern equipment, no modern medical treatment, no facilities with things like ice baths to speed recovery, and so on. The top players weren't making $50m a year with all the advantages that brings (i.e. teams of doctors, medical professionals, athletic trainers, personal coaches, masseuses, psychologists, and so on; all of the stress-relieving luxuries those salaries & the modern world afford).

The game has gotten a lot more competitive. But it's the same core game. What players achieved was relative to their competition. I don't think anyone would argue those old timers could compete if dropped into today's game as they are; without a lifetime to adapt with all the advantages today's players had. And even if they had those advantages of training, they came from a much smaller pool of players. But that's why greatness is measured relative to others of the same era, and that is what we compare.

Otherwise, just admit you aren't asking if Ohtani's the greatest of all time. You're merely asking if he's the greatest of his time.

 

[mjmj]

There was also spitballs, cleating, pitchers throwing it at your head without fear of consequences, no sophisticated PEDs, no modern travel, no modern equipment, no modern medical treatment, no facilities with things like ice baths to speed recovery, and so on. There weren't players making $50m a year and all the advantages that brings (i.e. teams of doctors, medical professionals, athletic trainers, personal coaches, masseuses, psychologists, and so on; all of the stress-relieving luxuries those salaries & the modern world afford).

The game has gotten a lot more competitive. But it's the same core game. What players achieved was relative to their competition. I don't think anyone would argue those old timers could compete if dropped into today's game as they are; without a lifetime to adapt with all the advantages today's players had. And even if they had those advantages, they came from a much smaller pool. But that's why greatness is measured relative to others of the same era, and that is what we compare.

Otherwise, just admit you aren't asking if Ohtani's the greatest of all time. You're merely asking if he's the greatest of his time.

You seem to think you're proving me wrong by stating the EXACT same thing as I did. Again, things are just too different to compare todays stats to stats from 100 years ago.

 

[surgeyou1]

Why? You realize the year Ruth hit 60 HR there wasn't even 162 game seasons, yet, right? He did that in 151 games.

Ruth's 1921 season stacks up almost perfectly to Ohtani's current season in game total right now.

Ruth, 1921 vs. Ohtani, 2024
152 vs. 153, Games
.378 vs. .301, Batting Average
.512 vs. .383, On Base Percentage
693 vs. 701, Plate Appearances
177 vs. 128, Runs
201 vs. 184, Hits
44 vs. 34, Doubles
16 vs. 7, Triples
59 vs. 53, Home Runs
168 vs. 123, Runs Batted In
145 vs. 78, Walks
81 vs. 160, Strikeouts
17 vs. 55, Steals
457 vs. 391, Total Bases

I'm talking physically. I don't care what Ruth did in a segregated league against milkmen. Ohtani is a specimen. He would have had 100+ home runs back then.