Whats the beef between Denny Prokopos & Ryan Hall ?

[KJGould]

Hey look! A thread about some drama between two people that's none of our facking business!

This is why I come to sherdog, for the innovative posts!

The question was only brought up because Eddie Bravo mentions the issues Denny and Hall have with each other, when he's talking to Marcelo Garcia in the video of their roll. Since the video has been made public, the information within it is in the public domain and is open to discussion.

Bravo mentions something about not going to Marcelo's the day before because Hall was there, and wanted to avoid the 'politics' (he brought Denny along with him it would appear).

It's a valid thread.

 

[Lasse]

Did they have a match recently?

Last one I've seen them do was this one and Reis won on points (awesome match).

I think Hall beats Propokos, but I think Hall is still a little overrated.

Really sums it up. I am the biggest Hall fan but too many people consider him absolutely top tier which he isn't. He is "suffering" from a hype due to his style being more famous than himself. If Hall had the same achievements but a "regular" style he wouldn't be top tier in anybodys eyes.

Still a better grappler than Prokopos though.

 

[Hillary]

The question was only brought up because Eddie Bravo mentions the issues Denny and Hall have with each other, when he's talking to Marcelo Garcia in the video of their roll. Since the video has been made public, the information within it is in the public domain and is open to discussion.

Bravo mentions something about not going to Marcelo's the day before because Hall was there, and wanted to avoid the 'politics' (he brought Denny along with him it would appear).

It's a valid thread.

I see you're a TMZ reader with that line of logic.

 

[Calibur]

I see you're a TMZ reader with that line of logic.

What would you like to talk about Hillary?

 

[KJGould]

I see you're a TMZ reader with that line of logic.

The logic is sound. Deciding to complain about a thread, when it uses less energy to simply ignore it, isn't.

 

[Hillary]

The logic is sound. Deciding to complain about a thread, when it uses less energy to simply ignore it, isn't.

Not complaining, but the entertainment value of pointing out grown men being Chatty Cathys at any given opportunity is too much to pass up. Not to mention everyone grows giant balls when they post anonymously.

What would you like to talk about Hillary?

Technique, matches, tournaments, instructors (relating to their instruction), BJJ traveling, etc. What do I think this is, a forum about Jiu Jitsu?!

 

[Calibur]

Technique, matches, tournaments, instructors (relating to their instruction), BJJ traveling, etc. What do I think this is, a forum about Jiu Jitsu?!

We have threads on all of them. I see KJ post in them all the time. Not you though. To be fair, whenever someone turns on the Bat-signal over a scoring question you're really sharp at answering them, but still.

The topics you have posted besides the "tournaments" thing are all done to death. Anyone who has been on this board for more than 3 years has seen them all repeated over and over again.

People like talking about BJJ news, and sorry, but gossip is news. Keep in mind, this "beef" was propogated by Denny's teacher. A guy who wouldn't be near as popular as he is if he didn't go around instigating drama all the time.

People talk. That's what they do. I don't see why you gotta make a snarky comment about it if it's not defaming someone. You and I both know that BJJ gossip is a lot more brutal in real life than it ever is online.

 

[Hillary]

People talk. That's what they do. I don't see why you gotta make a snarky comment about it if it's not defaming someone. You and I both know that BJJ gossip is a lot more brutal in real life than it ever is online.

Which, in all honesty, is why I f*cking hate it so much. I've had to experience it, and all it does is poison a good thing.

I don't have time to post in 99% of threads here. Sorry, but med school/training/dogs/anything else that's real > Sherdog. I check in from time to time to see if I can be useful (see: posts about people I know or rules), check some cool techniques or tournament vids, and go on my merry way. Most people are happier the less I post anyway. I just really, really hate BJJ drama now.

 

[KJGould]

Good for you, I know I spend too much time online (not much compared so some people I know, but I sometimes feel that way)

 

[Balto]

Which, in all honesty, is why I f*cking hate it so much. I've had to experience it, and all it does is poison a good thing.

I don't have time to post in 99% of threads here. Sorry, but med school/training/dogs/anything else that's real > Sherdog. I check in from time to time to see if I can be useful (see: posts about people I know or rules), check some cool techniques or tournament vids, and go on my merry way. Most people are happier the less I post anyway. I just really, really hate BJJ drama now.

There will always be a certain level of drama in BJJ because BJJ is not fundamentally about techniques, matches, tournaments, etc. At its core, it is about ideas and philosophies. There are several competing ones in a variety of areas, and naturally these cause some amount of friction and conflict.

The topic here is an example of that. The two have never met, but there is an ideological difference between them. Ryan has been publicly opposing certain fundamental philosophies of the 10th Planet style for a while now.

Of course things get blown out of proportion. But to deny that there would be any friction at all is incorrect. When two people with competing philosophies meet, there is always a little bit of tension.

Based on how you conceptualize BJJ on several different dimensions, you will naturally find yourself very close with some groups, friendly with some, a bit awkward with some, and (hopefully very rare but it does happen) unwelcome with some.

The belief that BJJ should not even be about these types of ideas is itself a philosophy that will naturally bring itself into conflict with those who believe that BJJ should be about these types of ideas. That's why even writing this post brings up a little bit of tension because I am putting forward a different idea than you are.

Ultimately, it's not a matter of avoiding the tension altogether but rather being able to put the tension aside and still be friendly. If I recognize you at a tournament, I will definitely come up and say hi because I have a ton of respect for you. Even though I know you think some of my ideas about BJJ are silly, that's not something that I want to stand in the way.

There will always be competing ideas in BJJ on a variety of topics, and as a result there will always be different versions of these "beef" threads. I think to some extent people just need to talk a little and let these things run their course naturally.

 

[Hillary]

Balto man, you're one of my favorite posters, but to masquerade boys wanting to gossip as a exchange of philosophies is a leap and a half.

 

[Balto]

Balto man, you're one of my favorite posters, but to masquerade boys wanting to gossip as a exchange of philosophies is a leap and a half.

Well that's what the beef is right? Ryan is not a fan of certain major parts of the 10th Planet philosophy, and he has torn up things like the rubber guard in his instructionals. As such, the 10th Planet guys take offense, and it starts to create friction.

Pretty soon one thing leads to another and you have Eddie telling Marcelo that two of their students hate each other. It gets blown way out of proportion.

But it ultimately starts with Ryan not liking the rubber guard very much. It's not like Denny clipped his car leaving a tournament and didn't leave a note. It's about the BJJ idea to start with.

 

[dokomoy]

Well that's what the beef is right? Ryan is not a fan of certain major parts of the 10th Planet philosophy, and he has torn up things like the rubber guard in his instructionals. As such, the 10th Planet guys take offense, and it starts to create friction.

Pretty soon one thing leads to another and you have Eddie telling Marcelo that two of their students hate each other. It gets blown way out of proportion.

But it ultimately starts with Ryan not liking the rubber guard very much. It's not like Denny clipped his car leaving a tournament and didn't leave a note. It's about the BJJ idea to start with.

I don't really agree with this. First the VAST majority of bjj bullshit/drama/whatever isn't about philosophy it's about "did that guy call out my teammate" or "this dude is a creonte" or "rival school x gives out belts" or other such nonsense. Second, even when guys do disagree on techniques and philosophies that stuff can be discussed without turning into drama. If all that had happened between Eddie and Ryan was disagreements over techniques(Ryan not liking rubber guard, Eddie not loving Ryan's rolling back take) they probably could have still trained together(in fact it's very valuable to train with people who do things different than you do). However, once you accuse someone of "ducking" the well is poisoned and NOW you have beef.

 

[robotsonic]

Did they have a match recently?

Last one I've seen them do was this one and Reis won on points (awesome match).

I think Hall beats Propokos, but I think Hall is still a little overrated.

I was thinking of this one



Admittedly not that recent a match.

 

[robotsonic]

Also people who say Hall isn't top tier are tripping fucking balls.

 

[Balto]

I don't really agree with this. First the VAST majority of bjj bullshit/drama/whatever isn't about philosophy it's about "did that guy call out my teammate" or "this dude is a creonte" or "rival school x gives out belts" or other such nonsense. Second, even when guys do disagree on techniques and philosophies that stuff can be discussed without turning into drama. If all that had happened between Eddie and Ryan was disagreements over techniques(Ryan not liking rubber guard, Eddie not loving Ryan's rolling back take) they probably could have still trained together(in fact it's very valuable to train with people who do things different than you do). However, once you accuse someone of "ducking" the well is poisoned and NOW you have beef.

Well creonte stuff is fundamentally a difference of opinion over what the relationship between an instructor and student really is. Giving out belts is a fundamental difference on standards and integrity in the art, etc. While the specific instances with specific people are just symptoms, the underlying cause is usually that some people just view BJJ completely differently than others. For example, if everyone agreed that the instructor/student relationship was a pure business transaction that could be immediately severed with no hard feelings at any time, there would never be any creonte threads in the first place. But of course not everyone can agree on that so we have those things.

I agree that it is possible to discuss differences in philosophy without drama. However, it is natural that it does tend towards drama at times due to human nature. When someone says your entire philosophy is flawed, even if they are doing so politely, the natural reaction is to get defensive and take it personally. The fact that this inevitably happens and causes drama isn't something that we can really change because that's just how people are.

 

[beeran1]

Hillary - while this is probably far from the most innovative, educational or important thread on Sherdog, most of the people who post on here look up to well-known black belt competitors as we would the stars of other sports, i.e. Derek Jeter, Kobe and Tebow (yup, I just did that). You might see them more as peers rather than icons, which would explain your "wtf who cares stop posting this shiz" attitude toward it. Just my .02.

 

[mixmaster staph]

Well creonte stuff is fundamentally a difference of opinion over what the relationship between an instructor and student really is. Giving out belts is a fundamental difference on standards and integrity in the art, etc. While the specific instances with specific people are just symptoms, the underlying cause is usually that some people just view BJJ completely differently than others. For example, if everyone agreed that the instructor/student relationship was a pure business transaction that could be immediately severed with no hard feelings at any time, there would never be any creonte threads in the first place. But of course not everyone can agree on that so we have those things.

I agree that it is possible to discuss differences in philosophy without drama. However, it is natural that it does tend towards drama at times due to human nature. When someone says your entire philosophy is flawed, even if they are doing so politely, the natural reaction is to get defensive and take it personally. The fact that this inevitably happens and causes drama isn't something that we can really change because that's just how people are.

While all this is true, none of this shit goes on within gyms because of the set hierarchy of guys. If I smash you every time we roll, we're not going to be arguing over philosophies of grappling (at least in my experience). It's when people start bitching about people over the internet that shit gets silly.

 

[beeran1]

Also people who say Hall isn't top tier are tripping fucking balls.

Truth. Hall hangs with anyone and has beaten many of the best.

 

[Balto]

While all this is true, none of this shit goes on within gyms because of the set hierarchy of guys. If I smash you every time we roll, we're not going to be arguing over philosophies of grappling (at least in my experience).

Yes, it is very rare within a specific gym to have major arguments.

I think this is also because the gym itself attracts people who adhere to the same philosophy. Over time, students will also start to conform to the philosophy of the gym and assume its identity.

The issues that can be solved by rolling are rarely the controversial ones. Usually the big rifts are not over whether the berimbolo or the spiral guard is a more effective game. The big rifts are over whether modern competition is changing BJJ for better or worse, whether we need to keep a focus on MMA or not, what standards we need to have for each belt, etc. Those things aren't going to be solved by rolling and observing the result.