What's more fundamental to success in Kickboxing/MT- Boxing or Kicking?

[spacetime]

Who would fare better in the ring as rookie, all else equal, a natural talent at boxing with mediocre kicks, or a talented kicker with mediocre hands? And let's say the rookies face each other, who would you bet on? Both are conditioned to withstand low kicks. Same cardio, same weight, height, etc

Which skill is more fundamental in your opinion?

How many bouts in Muay Thai are decided by KO with punches compared to kicks?

There are good arguments to be made for either one. Range control - kicker. Close range proficiency - boxer. If the kicker is able to dictate range well enough, he won't need the boxing. If the boxer is able to cut range well enough, he won't need to kick.

 

[aerius]

Whichever one masters the no shadow technique

 

[biscuitsbrah]

Too many variables to say. I would value the hands more if the ‘rookies’ can block kicks effectively.

I’ve seen amateur fights won by guys exclusively utilizing kicks and clinch though

 

[dudeguyman]

well if boxing includes boxing footwork and head movement, then boxing. Otherwise just whatever the individual is more comfortable with. As long as they have mediocre punches and kicks either is fine I guess.

 

[spacetime]

Too many variables to say. I would value the hands more if the ‘rookies’ can block kicks effectively.h

But even if he can block kicks effectively, don't you put your money on the talented kicker to keep him at range?

There were 10 challenge matches between kung fu and boxers somewhere in the 70s-80s (probably some sort of kickbox rules), and the kung fu team won 10-0.

I don't think they won by punches so that is some indication that kicking beats boxing.

 

[spacetime]

well if boxing includes boxing footwork and head movement, then boxing. .

Strange critera. Plenty of GOAT boxers who had nonexistent footwork and head movement, Foreman being the best example. How many times did you see him bob and weave or use advanced footwork?

 

[Reyesnuthugr]

Boxers lost to everyone back in the 50's and for the next few decades because they weren't familiar with the offensive arsenal of these martial arts they had not dealt with before (throws and mostly kicks).

The martial art with the secret weapons has the vast upperhand and usually wins, same as the 90's with BJJ. Then BJJ wasn't used to dealing with wrestlers so they started losing to them, and then wrestle-boxers and boxers with very minor abilities to defend from every other category have held the majority of the MMA market share since then.

These days when every person and practitioner is familiar with the general scheme of everything and are familiar with the rulesets and offensive threats of basically all martial arts (there are no large secrets anymore), boxing becomes the most difficult to defend against because it is the only martial art which to defend against you have to be as good or better than the attacker at. The other arts you can learn enough defense to stall against them (even higher levels) in a matter of months. Not the case with boxing, and it will likely stay that way, as it is even true for pure boxers against each other.

 

[spacetime]

Boxers lost to everyone back in the 50's and for the next few decades because they weren't familiar with the offensive arsenal of these martial arts they had not dealt with before (throws and mostly kicks).

The martial art with the secret weapons has the vast upperhand and usually wins, same as the 90's with BJJ. Then BJJ wasn't used to dealing with wrestlers so they started losing to them, and then wrestle-boxers and boxers with very minor abilities to defend from every other category have held the majority of the MMA market share since then.

These days when every person and practitioner is familiar with the general scheme of everything and are familiar with the rulesets and offensive threats of basically all martial arts (there are no large secrets anymore), boxing becomes the most difficult to defend against because it is the only martial art which to defend against you have to be as good or better than the attacker at. The other arts you can learn enough defense to stall against them (even higher levels) in a matter of months. Not the case with boxing, and it will likely stay that way, as it is even true for pure boxers against each other.

We are not talking about everyone. Just boxing vs kicking. A kicker is just as bad defensively to punches, as a boxer is to kicks. I have heard of a grade B kicker getting outboxed by a grade C boxer.. So I don't think it's a foregone conclusion, but I don't have not enough data on it.

Btw, the Gracies beat all wrestling challenges. It's wrestlers who crosstrained in BJJ who turned out to kill pure BJJ

 

[spacetime]

Btw, some former Karate students complained that Karate/TKD was disjointed (patterns don't relate to the sparring), whereas in Kung Fu everything was interconnected and coherent. So the fact that the techniques were largely the same didn't matter, It's the system that made it good or bad.

Was that your guys experience as well? Even though many Kung Fu styles seems to lack sparring, it's a more unified system, perhaps?

 

[esum80]

coincidentally, i just watched this morning a clip of a fight between a muay thai fighter and a guy who was a former amateur boxer. the boxer won by using his footwork to close the distance, throwing combos and setting up for knees. (didn't see him throw kicks).

he checked a few kicks but was able to finish with a liver shot.

 

[spacetime]

coincidentally, i just watched this morning a clip of a fight between a muay thai fighter and a guy who was a former amateur boxer. the boxer won by using his footwork to close the distance, throwing combos and setting up for knees. (didn't see him throw kicks).

he checked a few kicks but was able to finish with a liver shot.

Where is the clip?

 

[esum80]

Where is the clip?

it was on instagram, let me try and find it.

edit:


watched a lot of clips this morning, he didn't finish with a liver shot.

 

[spacetime]

it was on instagram, let me try and find it.

edit:


watched a lot of clips this morning, he didn't finish with a liver shot.

Thanks. I would say that's a boxer using Muay Thai, though... His kneeing. contributed to the win and the stance was not really boxing either.

 

[esum80]

Thanks. I would say that's a boxer using Muay Thai, though... His knees contributed to the win. And his stance was not really boxing either.

i know, in my original post, i said he was a former amateur boxer that used his hands to set up knees. another example i am thinking of is holzken vs. daniels. raymond daniels has the craziest and trickiest kicks but he needs distance to throw those; holzken has way better hands and just walked daniels down into a corner and boxed him up.

 

[spacetime]

i know, in my original post, i said he was a former amateur boxer that used his hands to set up knees. another example i am thinking of is holzken vs. daniels. raymond daniels has the craziest and trickiest kicks but he needs distance to throw those; holzken has way better hands and just walked daniels down into a corner and boxed him up.

And Lebanner killed this Olympic Taekwondo guy, with just boxing. But Lebanner is of course used to kickers, since he trains both boxing and KB and mainly competes in KB.

 

[esum80]

And Lebanner killed this Olympic golden medalist in WTF Taekwondo, with just boxing. But Lebanner is of course used to kickers, since he trains both boxing and KB and mainly competes in KB.

when i was watching the barboza fight this past weekend, i started thinking about this topic too even though it was mma. the way khabib was stalking edson, there was no way barboza could unload his kicks which was his bread and butter.

 

[spacetime]

Sorry, lebanners opponent was an Olympic alternate in Taekwondo. Still high level.

And I don't think his kicks looked hard to parry even for a pure boxer.

 

[spacetime]

when i was watching the barboza fight this past weekend, i started thinking about this topic too even though it was mma. the way khabib was stalking edson, there was no way barboza could unload his kicks which was his bread and butter.

Yes. I have not managed to in a dojo, the kickboxer just circles forever.

 

[esum80]

Yes. I have not managed to in a dojo, the kickboxer just circles forever.

that's when you do this to them:

and this to piss them off to draw them in:

i hate runners during sparring. using footwork is one thing but if you are doing a marathon around the room then:

 

[dudeguyman]

Strange critera. Plenty of GOAT boxers who had nonexistent footwork and head movement, Foreman being the best example. How many times did you see him bob and weave or use advanced footwork?

well good footwork helps with evasion and cutting angles and shit.