What makes you fat, carbs or calories?

[Seriously-Dead]

Lol, the study lasted for a month. They extrapolated energy requirements based on weight loss, so of course when the low carb groups lost their 5lbs of excess water weight, it showed up as having a net positive effect on energy balance. The study also wasn't protein-controlled. Flawed, useless, and pushing Dr. Ludwig's agenda.

From my understanding on the study, they used indirect calorimetry to establish REE, so the methods are legitimate. First they had all the subjects lose weight on a normal cal restriction diet until they lost 12.5% of BW. Then they put them on isocaloric diets of either the low-carb/low-fat/low-GI diets. Then they found that while on the low-carb diet (using a randomized crossover design, so the study lasted over three months) that patients had the highest REE/TEE on the low-carb diet. So the results seem solid...

But I still have a bad taste in my mouth because despite the fact that physical activity did not differ between any group, and while REE/TEE were different, there was no difference in weight loss while on the different isocaloric diets. Also, they used a DEXA scanner to assess body fat percentage in the run-in weight loss stage, but didn't use it for the isocaloric stage. Why? Why would they use the DEXA, which costs money and time, on the phase of the experiment that they weren't even testing, and then not use DEXA during the phase they were testing, especially when they found REE/TEE values to be different with no difference in actual weight lost? To me, it screams out that they omitted results on body fat percentage data because it wasn't favorable. They poured so much money into this study, I know they had the funding to pay for more DEXA scans (for 27 patients it would only cost them an additional ~$700 to run a DEXA after each trial diet, which is a drop in the hat compared to how much everything else costs).

I think this study actually just took a weakness in indirect calorimetry methods and used it to their advantage. REE measurements look at O2/CO2 and sometimes urea nitrogen waste. For the O2/CO2 REE measurements, the method is inherently biased towards estimating a higher REE when you have a lower RQ output. RQ is always lower on high-fat diets because of the increase in fat oxidation, which lowers the CO2 output. Here is the formula:

REE = [VO2 (3.941) + VCO2 (1.11)] 1440 min/day

What do you think will happen to REE when VCO2 drops and VO2 raises? You guessed it, REE will be significantly higher because the coefficient for VO2 is over triple that of VCO2.

 

[Frode Falch]

what about those low carb freaks who claim that you can eat as much as you want, as long as its only protein and fat.. And you will not gain weight.

Sound like bs to me. But i have never tried to eat zero carbs

 

[WARserra]

what about those low carb freaks who claim that you can eat as much as you want, as long as its only protein and fat.. And you will not gain weight.

Sound like bs to me. But i have never tried to eat zero carbs

It worked for me when I lost weight the first time. I went from 226 to 165. It's a miserable lifestyle that makes you more likely to binge on sweets and grains.

 

[PhelpsMMA]

Carbs don't get turned into fat unless you overeat on carbs over a LONG period of time, and up to that point it's the fat in your diet that gets stored as body fat (as fat is more easily stored as fat, logically).

I'm pretty sure that goes against everything I've read that is less than 10-20 years old. You don't just eat fat and it shuttles straight to fat stores, it is still broken down and that takes longer than carbohydrates, due to the more complex molecular strands, or something. I also think it is the case that you can't store all the fat you eat, whereas a single high carb mean will be broken down very quickly and 1) used for energy 2) used to replenish depleted glycogen stores in the muscles 3) used to replenish depleted glycogen stores in the liver 4) be stored as fat. The fact carbs also cause an insulin spike makes this all much worse (or better depending how you time them relative to your training.)

I'm just gonna put this out there....'


The body is terribly ineffecient at storing its energy (calorie) intake as stored matter (muscle mass and adipose cells). It's something to the effect of only 40% of your total calorie intake that makes it's way towards mucsle or fat stores, and thats not even taking into account things like TEF or the type of diet/foods consumed. It's not enough to simply say it's x + y calories.


1000 extra cals above maintaince vaule dosen't nessecerilly (depending of what your eating) go all toward weight gain....


I'd say the whole gain weight/lose weight issue is mostly hormonal (insulin, test levels, cortisol, ect) and meal qauilty as opposed to total volume of food ingested.

Did you see my thread asking how many calories you can absorb per meal/day? This was my sort of question, how much over a certain amount say maintenance do we use if we are taking 500,1000,2000 etc.

When you say only 40% is used, how much of the remainder is used directly for energy, organ function, thermogensis etc?

If I wasn't exercising 6 days a week I'd agree with you. I'm eating at near or over a 1000 calorie deficit a day below my calculated maintenance. I wasn't nearly exercising this hard when I was dropping weight like nothing.

Is that calculated on your old weight, or you new weight? When you were dropping weight like nothing, 1% bodyfat might have been 2lbs, now 1% bodyfat is probably less than 1lb, so you could expect to drop it slower.

 

[PhelpsMMA]

It worked for me when I lost weight the first time. I went from 226 to 165. It's a miserable lifestyle that makes you more likely to binge on sweets and grains.

That is why carb refeed days were invented. I had the same cravings when I was cutting around 10% zero carb, I would have a carb binge every 4th day, not going too over with calories though.

Now on IF my carb refeed is every 16-20 hours, feels good man.

(Although on non training days it is only a bowl of oatmeal or oats in my protein shake, but still better than nothing)

 

[Cygnus-X]

I'm pretty sure that goes against everything I've read that is less than 10-20 years old.

I'd wager that most of it is on websites that want to sell you something.

I don't think you understood what I wrote.

When you overeat and the body stores fat, no matter if you eat low carb/high fat or high carb/low fat or whatever, the body will primarily use the fat in your diet for storage.

The fact carbs also cause an insulin spike makes this all much worse (or better depending how you time them relative to your training.)

If you're a healthy normal individual there's nothing to fear from any insulin spike caused by carbs.

Seriously, most of this board should be forbidden to write anything about insulin ever.

 

[Seriously-Dead]

Seriously, most of this board should be forbidden to write anything about insulin ever.

That's a rule I could get behind.

 

[PhelpsMMA]

I'd wager that most of it is on websites that want to sell you something.

I don't think you understood what I wrote.

When you overeat and the body stores fat, no matter if you eat low carb/high fat or high carb/low fat or whatever, the body will primarily use the fat in your diet for storage.


If you're a healthy normal individual there's nothing to fear from any insulin spike caused by carbs.

Seriously, most of this board should be forbidden to write anything about insulin ever.

No, generally forums like this, articles by people in the game for years, lyle mcdonald, alan aragon etc.

I don't think that is true at all, which is why ketosis works so well, carbohydrates are the easiest and fastest to store therefore the primary use.

Normal individuals aren't healthy and they should be worried, healthy dieters should also take care, it is not a complicated topic pretty much everyone knows that too much insulin too regularly = insulin resistance = diabetus.

 

[Seriously-Dead]

pretty much everyone knows that too much insulin too regularly = insulin resistance = diabetus.

the funny thing is, get this, everyone usually talks out of their asses.

that's not how diabetes works. the primary problem in diabetes is overactive glucagon and hepatic glucose. Insulin resistance is a symptom that leads to further disregulation, not a root cause.

 

[Cygnus-X]

I don't think that is true at all, which is why ketosis works so well, carbohydrates are the easiest and fastest to store therefore the primary use.

Carbs and fats are stored in different places.

And that ketosis is this good thing everyone should be in is just a big crock of shit.

Normal individuals aren't healthy.

Yes, they are, that's why they're normal. Jesus christ...

 

[PhelpsMMA]

the funny thing is, get this, everyone usually talks out of their asses.

that's not how diabetes works. the primary problem in diabetes is overactive glucagon and hepatic glucose. Insulin resistance is a symptom that leads to further disregulation, not a root cause.

Caused by regular and/or prolonged insulin spikes

Carbs and fats are stored in different places.

And that ketosis is this good thing everyone should be in is just a big crock of shit.


Yes, they are, that's why they're normal. Jesus christ...

I'll agree there is some thought carbs are the main cause in visceral fat, but I've seen just as many claims that it is caused by saturated fat. If you have any futher information about how and where fat is spot-enhanced I'd be very interested, I hate that over 12% it all goes to my belly, I'd much rather be able to store it in my shoulders and arms like a meso.

Wow way to generalise an entire diet many people have lots of success with.

Normal which would be the majority or average, which would be an overweight person. (based on western countries where the majority of studies are undertaken)

 

[Seriously-Dead]

Caused by regular and/or prolonged insulin spikes

No.. no.. no.

 

[Cygnus-X]

I'll agree there is some thought carbs are the main cause in visceral fat, but I've seen just as many claims that it is caused by saturated fat. If you have any futher information about how and where fat is spot-enhanced I'd be very interested, I hate that over 12% it all goes to my belly,

Jesus, I'm not talking about spot enhancement.

When the body wants to store fat in fat cells, it primarily uses fat. The process of turning carbs into fat doesn't happen until after long periods of consistent overeating.

I'd much rather be able to store it in my shoulders and arms like a meso.

Somatotypes are bullshit.

Normal which would be the majority or average, which would be an overweight person. (based on western countries where the majority of studies are undertaken)

No.

 

[CeleresVerraden]

i don't get it...

60 g dextrose will digest rather quickly and cause a huge spike in insulin, correct?

60 g carbs from brown rice will digest slowly, thus a smaller spike, correct?

but won't 60g of carbs, no matter how quickly they're digested, still need the same amount of insulin to control? so how can it matter if you produce x insulin in 20 seconds as opposed to x insulin over the course of 45 minutes?

 

[Seriously-Dead]

i don't get it...

60 g dextrose will digest rather quickly and cause a huge spike in insulin, correct?

60 g carbs from brown rice will digest slowly, thus a smaller spike, correct?

but won't 60g of carbs, no matter how quickly they're digested, still need the same amount of insulin to control? so how can it matter if you produce x insulin in 20 seconds as opposed to x insulin over the course of 45 minutes?

It doesn't matter, that's how. The insulin hypothesis is garbage for many reasons. Common sense is one of them.

 

[PhelpsMMA]

Jesus, I'm not talking about spot enhancement.

When the body wants to store fat in fat cells, it primarily uses fat. The process of turning carbs into fat doesn't happen until after long periods of consistent overeating.

Somatotypes are bullshit.

No.

Well you said it stores them different places, I wanted to know where. Fat has never stored or removed itself from different places regardless of whether I ate good, bad, high carb or high fat.

i don't get it...

60 g dextrose will digest rather quickly and cause a huge spike in insulin, correct?

60 g carbs from brown rice will digest slowly, thus a smaller spike, correct?

but won't 60g of carbs, no matter how quickly they're digested, still need the same amount of insulin to control? so how can it matter if you produce x insulin in 20 seconds as opposed to x insulin over the course of 45 minutes?

I think the issue is you release more and often too much due to a high GI, so you have the dump and then you drop your blood sugar too much with the overkill and you get tired. Hence post carb sleepyness.

Slower release carbs done cause such a shocked response and so a moderate release.

It doesn't matter, that's how. The insulin hypothesis is garbage for many reasons. Common sense is one of them.

Except in the concept of dieting it is very useful. Consuming carbs in a state of insulin sensitivity reduces the amount stored as fat, improving insulin sensitivity generally makes for easier dieting in terms of tiredness and appetite.

Just look at people with excellent genetics for having low insulin resistance such as the chinese and the amount the amount of carbohydrates they can consume.

 

[miaou]

No.. no.. no.

ftfy

 

[Cygnus-X]

Well you said it stores them different places, I wanted to know where. Fat has never stored or removed itself from different places regardless of whether I ate good, bad, high carb or high fat.

I'm talking about how they're stored on a cellular level, not if they're making your ass or thighs fatter.

 

[Seriously-Dead]

Can you just please stop talking, phelps? kthxbye

lol, thanks maiou!

 

[miaou]

When the body wants to store fat in fat cells, it primarily uses fat. The process of turning carbs into fat doesn't happen until after long periods of consistent overeating.

This is not exactly accurate.

Generally speaking (maybe with a few exceptions in cases like in adaptive thermoregulatory responses to cold exposure) the body doesn't "want" to store fat, it just makes the best use of the energy available.

If there is excess sugar (excess as in more than can be used to replenish the body's glycogen stores and maintain serum glucose homeostasis) that sugar is getting stored as fat. It's not a matter of "it primarily uses fat", it is a matter of using whatever is available and cannot be used for functional and/or structural purposes.