What is Gracie Self Defense?

[Tin Foil Hat]

I've been looking at BJJ schools in my area and have narrowed it down to 2:

One is (arguably) the top competition school in the area, the other is a traditional Gracie JJ school.

The GJJ school has a fundamentals class where they teach the 36 most important techniques of GJJ. I also noticed that Rener describes the Gracie Combatives DVD as containing the 36 most important GJJ techniques.

I was going through an old copy of Renzo and Royler's book, and they showed quite a bit of self defense techniques, but they all looked very TMA-ish, like escapes from wrist grabs, bear hugs, Frankenstein chokes, etc.

Then I found this Gracie self defense demo on YouTube. It's basically all the self defense techniques in the book, plus some weapon defense techniques:


Is this really what constitutes the difference between GJJ and BJJ or is there more to it? These techniques seem pretty simple, which I guess is the idea. And maybe I'm being naive, but it seems like anyone with a couple months of grappling experience could get these down in a couple of weeks, while the finer points of BJJ take years to perfect.

Self-defense isn't my motivation for starting BJJ, but neither is competition... I just hate to feel like I'm missing out on learning.

 

[axelk]

see who teaches and track their lineage

 

[ALAN PARTRIDGE]

is it what it is

 

[Gambledub]

you should ask the competition school if they also do self defense?

 

[Einarr]

GJJ is basically BJJ with 36 unrealistic, useless, TMA set techniques of self-defense, plus they have weak-ass blue belts who have never rolled. The so-called "sport" techniques are infinitely better for self-defense than the SD techniques. The defense against the Frankenstein choke is a perfect example of this a) no-one is ever going to attack you with their arms outstretched trying to choke you b) if they did I'm going to stick my thumb in their eye then Osoto Gari the fucker not do the lame GJJ self-defence technique. The 36 SD techniques in GJJ are just as useless as anything in Aikido or Krav Maga.

 

[Tin Foil Hat]

you should ask the competition school if they also do self defense?

I asked the owner/head instructor about BJJ for self-defense. While they don't have self-defense classes or train specific self-defense techniques, he said that in his opinion, self-defense is common sense; i.e. Stay out of bad neighborhoods, avoid fights if you can, but if you have to fight, close distance, get the takedown, establish dominant position, control the guy or punch/submit if he still fights back.

He also said he believes that judo is the best style for self-defense and that the judo classes they offer would be a good choice if that's what I was interested in.

 

[Tin Foil Hat]

GJJ is basically BJJ with 36 unrealistic, useless, TMA set techniques of self-defense, plus they have weak-ass blue belts who have never rolled. The so-called "sport" techniques are infinitely better for self-defense than the SD techniques. The defense against the Frankenstein choke is a perfect example of this a) no-one is ever going to attack you with their arms outstretched trying to choke you b) if they did I'm going to stick my thumb in their eye then Osoto Gari the fucker not do the lame GJJ self-defence technique. The 36 SD techniques in GJJ are just as useless as anything in Aikido or Krav Maga.

That's the impression I got. But there isn't anything in GJJ beyond these 36 techniques that differentiate it from BJJ? They aren't grappling with strikes or drilling takedowns with strikes?

 

[seatea]

It's the marketing direction Rorian took after the Gracies no longer ruled the roost in competition.

 

[Steelviper]

That's the impression I got. But there isn't anything in GJJ beyond these 36 techniques that differentiate it from BJJ? They aren't grappling with strikes or drilling takedowns with strikes?

There's more than 36 techs:
https://secure.gracieacademy.com/categories/books/GSB-MTBOOK.html

There's close to 100 just of the self defense ones from front and back, not counting the weapon stuff. Effectiveness varies, but obviously if you only ever drill against non-resisting opponents, obviously it'd be less useful.

On the one hand you have kinda cheesy stuff like the "fake hair comb to judo CHOP!" or the "distract them by talking and sidekick them in the stomach". On the other hand, you have Helio showing the elbow-raise "Marcelotine" long before Marcelo was ever doing it that way. Establishing base, grips, offbalancing your opponent... There's principle underlying the self defense stuff that is very sport applicable.

I'm biased, because I belt under Gracie Humaita, so in order to advance to higher belts I'll have to demonstrate knowledge of the gracie self defense stuff.

 

[EndlessCritic]

My opinion is that most of the techs are the antithesis of what makes bjj great.

 

[BJJ_Rage]

GJJ is basically BJJ with 36 unrealistic, useless, TMA set techniques of self-defense, plus they have weak-ass blue belts who have never rolled. The so-called "sport" techniques are infinitely better for self-defense than the SD techniques. The defense against the Frankenstein choke is a perfect example of this a) no-one is ever going to attack you with their arms outstretched trying to choke you b) if they did I'm going to stick my thumb in their eye then Osoto Gari the fucker not do the lame GJJ self-defence technique. The 36 SD techniques in GJJ are just as useless as anything in Aikido or Krav Maga.

while I agree that the 36 SD are no better tahn what you get at any TMA (may be a little bit better), you post is sooooo fucking wrong.

GJJ is basically bjj with a fighting focus, period. GRound fighting is not the same as pure grappling, GJJ is about ground fighting as a whole, not just grapple around, thats why guys like royce renzo ralpah and all the others did well when it was vale tudo style vs style, because they were not just grapplers, they were fighters, and there is a big ass difference. Sadly, the mayority of BJJ schools now have totally left the fighting side apart, even for their white belts, it should be guaranteed that if you walk in a GB school (the most traditional of the sport bjj teams not called humaita) you should be learning how to fight on the ground, you should be use to getting punch in the face while using your guard, how to close the distance bla bla bla, sadly thats not the case anymore, and if the school isnt afiliated to some MMA team, forget about that instruction.

Now the way is being marketing sucks ass, just as their online belts system, but thats another subject.

of course, all that doesnt apply to you, you simple osoto everyone to death.

 

[Monoman]

People just want to convince themselves that their chosen path is the best for everyone.

Sport BJJ isn't for everyone and neither is GJJ. They each fill a spot in the market with neither being better than the other as long as the customer is getting what they think they are paying for.

 

[Jagger Cyde]

Hands up, front teep kick to the body, close the distance into a body lock, suck in a takedown to mount

 

[Deltafarce]

You should know some self defense basics, but I think most schools teach a little bit, even the sport schools.

 

[Kframe]

I didn't think they were sd techs? I was on the university website and looking at the curriculum of the local gjj school and it wasn't set techs?

I thought the gracie combatives was just 36 basics. The school here it was just mount escapes with punch's and armbars and keylocks and some guard pass's.. They had some basic haymaker stuff which was just a duck under and go to rear takedown.

Einarr im not sure how you came to the conclusion you did, but I don't see how getting reps on basics is a bad thing. I honestly didn't see to many things wrong with the course, out side of the lack of sparring which is strange as hell. Unless there are other Gracies putting out there own SD tech. In which case I take back my comment to you..

Here is the curriculum. https://www.gracieuniversity.com/course.aspx?enc=AbyD5UD1jYKJsZAlGSK5IQ==

Don't see any Frankenstein chokes there. You say no one attacks like that, but I was back in high school. Was a freshman when it happened, had no idea how to deal with it, as I wasn't into martial arts till much later in life. Thankfully my friends helped me out.
When I was in mma, while we were not affiliated with them in any way, I remember doing most of this as a beginner. So outside of no rolling, which I agree with you on, what is it about those techs that is so bad? Most just seam like bjj basics to me, with some attention paid to some basic hillbilly punch's.

 

[Nozza]

Just because it looks like TMA doesn't mean it automatically doesn't work. Plenty of TMA stuff works - just not as well as it does in class. The wristlocks in response to grabs work pretty well against untrained attackers and in fact work much of the time against trained grapplers - watch Roy Harris's DVD, he does a lot of sneaky wristlocks. I'm not Aikido fanboy but their wrist locks do work. I messed around with an Aikido guy and you definitely need to watch out. You can counter and pull away when you know what you're looking for but if you don't then they hurt like damn.

How often this situation will arise which calls for a wrist lock against someone who has merely grabbed you is another issue. Useful stuff for bouncers though I wouldn't have thought.

 

[FinBJJ]

Some decent stuff on the video, but most of them look more like aikido than BJJ.

 

[Stratamagnus]

Just because it looks like TMA doesn't mean it automatically doesn't work. Plenty of TMA stuff works - just not as well as it does in class. The wristlocks in response to grabs work pretty well against untrained attackers and in fact work much of the time against trained grapplers - watch Roy Harris's DVD, he does a lot of sneaky wristlocks. I'm not Aikido fanboy but their wrist locks do work. I messed around with an Aikido guy and you definitely need to watch out. You can counter and pull away when you know what you're looking for but if you don't then they hurt like damn.

How often this situation will arise which calls for a wrist lock against someone who has merely grabbed you is another issue. Useful stuff for bouncers though I wouldn't have thought.

According to most people involved in MMA or jiu-jitsu, everything traditional is garbage. In real fighting, a lot of those traditional techniques will keep you alive because that is what they were designed to do. A great deal of people on this forum act like they do sport bjj with the mindset of Royce from UFC 1 but you know that 99% of people out there doing sport BJJ would get pounded out from within their own guard.

 

[EndlessCritic]

According to most people involved in MMA or jiu-jitsu, everything traditional is garbage. In real fighting, a lot of those traditional techniques will keep you alive because that is what they were designed to do. A great deal of people on this forum act like they do sport bjj with the mindset of Royce from UFC 1 but you know that 99% of people out there doing sport BJJ would get pounded out from within their own guard.

I don't disagree with this, but most of the standup 'gjj self defense' stuff is crap.

 

[Kframe]

I don't disagree with this, but most of the standup 'gjj self defense' stuff is crap.

Ill agree with this in part. I was talking to some friends on a TMA forum and some of them are very good with blades. We were watching some of the GJJ knife defense stuff and it looks good to the un-initiated but looking at it you can see the flaws.

They "block" the arm that has the blade, but their control(the lock they use) takes to long to implement. The attacker would be able to withdraw the knife and carve up the arm and keep stabbing before you could implement the knife defense they showed.

Honestly if you want knife work, go to knife experts.