What exactly makes the bench press less practical for athletes, especially fighters?

[GolovKing]

It's a claim I hear get thrown around quite often, that bench is good for bodybuilding and strength sports but that something about it makes it inferior to other pressing movements like dumbell presses and pushups for other athletes. I don't really understand the science behind it though, so what exactly makes the bench less effective?

 

[JimRussel]

Injury risk.

Same as the straight bar deadlift.

 

[ChickenBrother]

I'm just a bro scientist who trains, but having competed in wrestling, Judo, BJJ, boxing and cross-trained MMA around guys with big benches, IME big pressing strength doesn't translate that well and just isn't that important in most combat sports. Pulling strength much more so in wrestling and grappling, and in striking it's generally beneficial to be quicker and looser unless you're a HW.

Of course any kind of strength can be beneficial but specifically with barbell bench - it's prone to guys wanting to load up the bar and go for 1RM with bad form which on top of injury risk, is obviously the wrong training approach for combat sports in general.

 

[boingyman]

Goes to show that there are not many fighters on sherdog since benching teh 275 is a requirement.

 

[Volador]

Pretty sure you don't understand the science behind it because there isn't any.
And I would also question whether it’s even true that trainers think that way. The BP is a staple in football.

 

[Devil's_Advocate]

I think it's a myth more than anything. But any exercise which allows you to test your absolute strength and load up high weights will increase odds of an injury if done improperly.

 

[NoSmilez]

I will go against the grain and say you don't need to be very strong for fighting. You need to be relatively strong for your weight class. You can bench as your workout routine but if you take the effort to exclusively train big numbers for your bench then it might not be worth it. You might benefit more from actual skill training or rest.

 

[GolovKing]

I'm just a bro scientist who trains, but having competed in wrestling, Judo, BJJ, boxing and cross-trained MMA around guys with big benches, IME big pressing strength doesn't translate that well and just isn't that important in most combat sports. Pulling strength much more so in wrestling and grappling, and in striking it's generally beneficial to be quicker and looser unless you're a HW.

Of course any kind of strength can be beneficial but specifically with barbell bench - it's prone to guys wanting to load up the bar and go for 1RM with bad form which on top of injury risk, is obviously the wrong training approach for combat sports in general.

You could say the same thing about someone training for heavy 1 rep max on dumbbell presses or throwing a bunch of weight on top of your back and doing low rep pushups, it's not going to have much benefit for fighters, and strikers in particular. Couldn't low weight high rep bench press have similar benefits like doing pushups?

 

[GolovKing]

I will go against the grain and say you don't need to be very strong for fighting. You need to be relatively strong for your weight class. You can bench as your workout routine but if you take the effort to exclusively train big numbers for your bench then it might not be worth it. You might benefit more from actual skill training or rest.

I think core strength is pretty important, especially for grappling. Everything else I feel like muscle endurance, speed and explosiveness are more important than actual strength

 

[ROcknrollracing]

There is no exercise that is mandatory for an athlete. However, generally all exercises can be useful including the bench press.

 

[NoSmilez]

You could say the same thing about someone training for heavy 1 rep max on dumbbell presses or throwing a bunch of weight on top of your back and doing low rep pushups, it's not going to have much benefit for fighters, and strikers in particular. Couldn't low weight high rep bench press have similar benefits like doing pushups?

It depends on what you mean by low weight and high rep. Low weight high rep scheme is like 12-15 range. When I used to train frequently at advanced classes. We would do a 3-5 round jump rope warmup and in between rounds. We had to do 50 of each pushups, situps and squats. They would randomly throw other workouts in the middle of the session to get you tired so you don't go balls out in sparring. I don't think I ever repped 50 of anything in a weight room. I am going to try it out. I will try to find a weight where I can successfully do 50 reps on a bench.

 

[ChickenBrother]

I will go against the grain and say you don't need to be very strong for fighting. You need to be relatively strong for your weight class. You can bench as your workout routine but if you take the effort to exclusively train big numbers for your bench then it might not be worth it. You might benefit more from actual skill training or rest.

I'd go even further and say you don't even need to be relatively strong for your weight class, as long as you're not relatively weak. I'm reminded of a good analogy from a John Danaher seminar I went to about 11 years ago. This was right after GSP beat Jake Shields and his main coaches including Danaher, Firas Zahabi and Phil Nurse were there. Someone asked about their views on S&C and particularly with GSP's emphasis on it. Danaher said GSP was a "special athlete" but in general you only need to be about average trained strength and anything above that is nice but will have diminishing returns and come at the opportunity cost of other types of training. He said for example if the average trained fighter can bench 200 lbs (number wasn't important but he wanted to make the point), you could train that lift to be able to bench 300, but the incremental strength wouldn't help that much and your skills and other training would have suffered for it. On the other end, if you can only bench 100 lbs, you're going to be much weaker and need a much higher skill level to compensate - you're better off doing basic S&C to get up to average strength.

Re. bench in particular, I know firsthand that a guy who focuses on a big bench (and nothing else) feels weak as shit when you tie up with him in wrestling compared to a guy with a much weaker bench that does DL and pull ups.

You could say the same thing about someone training for heavy 1 rep max on dumbbell presses or throwing a bunch of weight on top of your back and doing low rep pushups, it's not going to have much benefit for fighters, and strikers in particular. Couldn't low weight high rep bench press have similar benefits like doing pushups?

I used to lift heavy on both barbell and dumbbell bench press and IME barbell is more prone to injury if you ego lift. You tend to flare your elbows out which puts a lot of stress on joints - I blew out my AC joint going for 1RM on barbell and couldn't barbell bench without pain for almost 3 years. But I could easily do dumbbell benchpress even with the injured AC joint, because they allow a more natural range of motion. When I felt OK to barbell bench again, I switched to 5-finger "suicide grip" which feels a lot better for me and forces you to keep your elbows in tighter and no shoulder problems since. I now use suicide grip on all barbell lifts including OHP and deadlift.

Re. bench press vs. push ups, if you go light enough to be able to do the same number of reps in each, push ups are superior because they're more of a compound exercise and require you to actively stabilize your core.

 

[thugpoet]

It's all anecdotal. In order to have a truly impressive bench press you have to specialize in it for the most part or dedicate a huge amount of time but if you can find someone who has a big bench press and and a decent grappling game The person with the big bench press will probably have an advantage. I do prefer the overhead press as the main upper body press movement but that's personal preference

 

[thugpoet]

I will go against the grain and say you don't need to be very strong for fighting. You need to be relatively strong for your weight class. You can bench as your workout routine but if you take the effort to exclusively train big numbers for your bench then it might not be worth it. You might benefit more from actual skill training or rest.

Well I agree in principle that you don't need to be strong to be a good fighter why wouldn't spend time increasing the one attribute that's probably the easiest to increase? It's only at the top level well technical ability can overcome strength advantages and even then how many times have you seen someone who is overwhelmingly strong hang with somebody who's technically superior? If strengthen matter then there wouldn't be weight classes.

 

[thugpoet]

You could say the same thing about someone training for heavy 1 rep max on dumbbell presses or throwing a bunch of weight on top of your back and doing low rep pushups, it's not going to have much benefit for fighters, and strikers in particular. Couldn't low weight high rep bench press have similar benefits like doing pushups0?

If you're going to do a rated exercise with a dips are easier to load than weighted push-ups. But the question is what are you trying to accomplish I'm a firm believer that time spent in a gym should be spent on two things getting stronger getting bigger if you want to increase your endurance go for a run.
⁷

 

[NoSmilez]

Well I agree in principle that you don't need to be strong to be a good fighter why wouldn't spend time increasing the one attribute that's probably the easiest to increase? It's only at the top level well technical ability can overcome strength advantages and even then how many times have you seen someone who is overwhelmingly strong hang with somebody who's technically superior? If strengthen matter then there wouldn't be weight classes.

You totally didn't read the part about relatively strong for your weight class?

 

[thugpoet]

You totally didn't read the part about relatively strong for your weight class?

How do you define relative strength? There's no strength standard in fighting. Again I agree in principle but to me your logic devalues strength.

 

[NoSmilez]

How do you define relative strength? There's no strength standard in fighting. Again I agree in principle but to me your logic devalues strength.

Strength in clinch or throwing hard strikes has nothing to with the weight room. Even pressure on the mats has nothing to do with weight room. When I make a statement like he feels strong in the clinch. I am not talking about how much he can bench or squat. What makes strength the easiest attribute to increase?

There are some basic strength bench press standards. I don't believe you need to be advanced or elite.
Strength Level Bodyweight Ratio
Beginner 0.50x
Novice 0.75x
Intermediate 1.25x
Advanced 1.75x
Elite 2.00x

I am not saying strength is useless. You just don't need overwhelming strength to be successful. If so then the football players and strongman will dominate fighting.

 

[hardheart]

I'd go even further and say you don't even need to be relatively strong for your weight class, as long as you're not relatively weak. I'm reminded of a good analogy from a John Danaher seminar I went to about 11 years ago. This was right after GSP beat Jake Shields and his main coaches including Danaher, Firas Zahabi and Phil Nurse were there. Someone asked about their views on S&C and particularly with GSP's emphasis on it. Danaher said GSP was a "special athlete" but in general you only need to be about average trained strength and anything above that is nice but will have diminishing returns and come at the opportunity cost of other types of training. He said for example if the average trained fighter can bench 200 lbs (number wasn't important but he wanted to make the point), you could train that lift to be able to bench 300, but the incremental strength wouldn't help that much and your skills and other training would have suffered for it. On the other end, if you can only bench 100 lbs, you're going to be much weaker and need a much higher skill level to compensate - you're better off doing basic S&C to get up to average strength.

Re. bench in particular, I know firsthand that a guy who focuses on a big bench (and nothing else) feels weak as shit when you tie up with him in wrestling compared to a guy with a much weaker bench that does DL and pull ups.




I used to lift heavy on both barbell and dumbbell bench press and IME barbell is more prone to injury if you ego lift. You tend to flare your elbows out which puts a lot of stress on joints - I blew out my AC joint going for 1RM on barbell and couldn't barbell bench without pain for almost 3 years. But I could easily do dumbbell benchpress even with the injured AC joint, because they allow a more natural range of motion. When I felt OK to barbell bench again, I switched to 5-finger "suicide grip" which feels a lot better for me and forces you to keep your elbows in tighter and no shoulder problems since. I now use suicide grip on all barbell lifts including OHP and deadlift.

Re. bench press vs. push ups, if you go light enough to be able to do the same number of reps in each, push ups are superior because they're more of a compound exercise and require you to actively stabilize your core.

You have to be "a special mma fan" to remember that GSP had 0 S&C before the first Hughes fight. When Hughes ragdolled him all around he went to Christian Thibaudeau. GSP was of "average" strength when he went there and was freak strong by the time he fought Hughes again and he maintained that strength through the rest of his career.

 

[spdrew2143]

Strength in clinch or throwing hard strikes has nothing to with the weight room. Even pressure on the mats has nothing to do with weight room. When I make a statement like he feels strong in the clinch. I am not talking about how much he can bench or squat. What makes strength the easiest attribute to increase?

There are some basic strength bench press standards. I don't believe you need to be advanced or elite.
Strength Level Bodyweight Ratio
Beginner 0.50x
Novice 0.75x
Intermediate 1.25x
Advanced 1.75x
Elite 2.00x

I am not saying strength is useless. You just don't need overwhelming strength to be successful. If so then the football players and strongman will dominate fighting.

Those bench press standards are low. You're saying 1.25x bodyweight bench is acceptable for a professional fighter?