What can BJJ to stop and reverse this trend?

[JohnPJones]

personally i think this is inevitable in the US in regards to martial arts, and it sounds like it's already hitting BJJ.

so how can the BJJ community stop this and reverse it? just more dojo/school challenges by legit BJJ blackbelts and brown belts?

 

[No Skill Gap]

Nah I don't think it's much of an issue. I haven't seen or heard of many if any fake BJJ schools.

The saving grace...or mechanism is that "sparring" (rolling) in BJJ isn't a devastating activity. Even if you go 80-100% like a lunatic you could still feasibly train 3-4 days per week or more and get a bunch of rolls in.

It's not like a striking art where if you did that someone is going to get aesthetic facial injuries, knocked out, concussions, long-term brain damage / CTE.

BJJ is tough and it's humbling, but it's just inherently less dangerous. Your joints will get fucked up especially if you don't know how to tap or go 100% or have retard spaz partners (and have poor posture, mobility, lack of proper training/prehab outside of bjj). But yeah generally you might get choked, armbar'd, shoulder locked...but you just tap.

Boxing/Muay Thai/Kickboxing/"legit forms" of other striking arts...it's simply more of a zero sum game. Very few people are comfortable getting hit in the face or kicked in the shins/legs.

Also most instructors roll with their students or are known to be legit. It's not like karate where some old bum can just do a bunch of dance moves to a children's class and seem veritable. Also number 2: we live in the information age, just google it bro.

TLDR: The sparring aka rolling will never be taken out of BJJ therefore it will never devolve into what "fake martial arts" did.

 

[kenetics]

personally i think this is inevitable in the US in regards to martial arts, and it sounds like it's already hitting BJJ.

so how can the BJJ community stop this and reverse it? just more dojo/school challenges by legit BJJ blackbelts and brown belts?

Firas is so cringey

 

[HunterAcosta]

Firas is so cringey

Yeah . I respect his teaching . Love his YouTube vids but something bout him rubs me the wrong way.

 

[JohnPJones]

Nah I don't think it's much of an issue. I haven't seen or heard of many if any fake BJJ schools.

The saving grace...or mechanism is that "sparring" (rolling) in BJJ isn't a devastating activity. Even if you go 80-100% like a lunatic you could still feasibly train 3-4 days per week or more and get a bunch of rolls in.

It's not like a striking art where if you did that someone is going to get aesthetic facial injuries, knocked out, concussions, long-term brain damage / CTE.

BJJ is tough and it's humbling, but it's just inherently less dangerous. Your joints will get fucked up especially if you don't know how to tap or go 100% or have retard spaz partners (and have poor posture, mobility, lack of proper training/prehab outside of bjj). But yeah generally you might get choked, armbar'd, shoulder locked...but you just tap.

Boxing/Muay Thai/Kickboxing/"legit forms" of other striking arts...it's simply more of a zero sum game. Very few people are comfortable getting hit in the face or kicked in the shins/legs.

Also most instructors roll with their students or are known to be legit. It's not like karate where some old bum can just do a bunch of dance moves to a children's class and seem veritable. Also number 2: we live in the information age, just google it bro.

TLDR: The sparring aka rolling will never be taken out of BJJ therefore it will never devolve into what "fake martial arts" did.

you don't have to take rolling out of BJJ to water it down to a mcdojo level. you just have to take the resistance out of it.

but i'm glad that the fact you haven't heard about any (aside from this video) means that they don't exist despite a plethora of BJJ guys actually making videos of themselves calling out fake BJJ schools, black belts and teachers...

 

[RemyR]

I might be in the minority, but I’m with Firas on this.

 

[Byrd]

Anytime money is involved, there is a chance of corruption. BJJ is no different and will only get worse. IMO, its up to the student to do the research on his gym and instructor.

I care about the sport, but personally dont worry about it because the mat doesnt lie. If someone want to learn shitty BJJ and buy belts so they can show off their rank to their ignorant buddies, so be it.

With todays technology, anyones lineage and reputation can be verified so caveat emptor and let the market dictate the winners and losers.

 

[j123]

If you really want it to stop, then you'd need capitalism to stop. Til then, its an opportunity and everyone is going to do what they gotta do to get some paper.

As much as fighters hate to do this, the hobbyists are the ones who pay the bills. Creating a gym that only caters to your competition team is a guarantee way to go bankrupt within a year. Seen this happen numerous times for different disciples (MMA, MT, BJJ, TKD); There needs to be a balance, with most of the gym having hobbyists. They're the ones who pay the bills and ultimately keep your doors open. This includes the occasional competitor who wants to challenge themselves, but not really all about the pro life for various reasons (work, family, etc). My guess is to follow the same plan that some of the larger MMA gyms have. Team Alpha Male, Tri-star, Rofus, all are known to be big name gyms, yet their programs for hobbyists are huge, which helps kept the doors open. People usually don't think put 2 + 2 with them and hobbysists because its not sexy, but its really a "hidden" market the fight game doesn't really talk about. The attention in the media is all about the fighters.

Dojo challenges wouldn't stop this "cancer" either. Say this happens, maybe in the beginning you'll have a tough school going around making waves "stealing" students and becoming monopoly of sorts by iron fisted type methods, like back in the day when the Gracies were going around going so. In a few months time (or year, depending on how fast they shift), you'll see rates going through the roof, new mandatory clothing, and more incentives to keep the cash flow will occur.

TLDR; gyms that are "fighter factories" are guaranteed to go bankrupt in a short time. Mcjodo-ism is not going away unless capitalism magically disappears.

 

[Quebec Nick]

I live in the area that Firas is talking about and I never heard of any issues about promoting too fast or giving out belts. I live in the south shore of Montreal and all the schools in the area have shitty white belts and blue belts just like some of them are really good. When we compete people from Montreal and from the north shore are just as good as anyone. Blue belts have the knowledge of blue belts, purple belts have the knowledge of purple belts... Athleticism varies, styles varies, agressivity varies but everybody knows what's going on according to their belt rank.

I never heard of a truly shitty purple belt in the area which is pretty much the main standard, who cares if someone is a bad blue belt, but promoting above blue belt is something else and I don't see it happening. For real the only technically shitty brown belt I ever heard about is fighting in the UFC right now.

Most schools in the suburbs are related to big affiliation in Montreal or Toronto (Fabio Hollanda's BTT, Bruno Fernandes' GB, Waggney Fabiano's Nova Uniao). There's a Carlson Gracie academy, a 10th Planet in Montreal, and there's 4 or 5 smaller schools from smaller affiliation (revolution, evolution) or independent schools (HoMa BJJ and Bravado) there's also MMA gym's (like Tristar and H2O). So the vast majority of BJJ practitionners in the area are under a big school with promoting criterias and every school is competitive in local competition, I don't see us going to the McDojo way in the Montreal area.

What Firas was also saying is that some guys go to Tristar and are worried about showing their rank... Tristar is full of super athletes with agressive MMA styles and most of them are nogi specialists. Sure a middle of the pack athlete purple belt who does 80% gi training will be worried to roll with a blue belt MMA fighter in nogi. That doesn't mean that he's not a purple belt.

 

[Matsukaze]

With todays technology, anyones lineage and reputation can be verified so caveat emptor and let the market dictate the winners and losers.

Agree with this.. information is just a google search away. I will also add that there will be those bjj schools that will have the majority if their students are hobbyists. Given when if visitors stop by to train that they will be training with people who work full time and have families and bjj isn't their number one. Does that make that school a Mcdojo? IMO .... no Not everyone wants to be world champs or fight mma.... most folks just want to get a good workout, make some friends and have a hobby

 

[winterbike]

Yeah . I respect his teaching . Love his YouTube vids but something bout him rubs me the wrong way.

There's a significant discrepancy between how smart he thinks he is and how smart he actually is.

 

[Your Noodly Master]

I'm ok with class requirements to get stripes at white belt and then do a test/crucible to get your blue. It gives new people goals and a reason to stick to it before they really know what BJJ is all about.

Who cares if someone shitty gets a brown belt and gets killed by everyone below him. Is that really going to make BJJ suffer? If someone like that visits my academy we'd all fuck him up and then move on with the day.

 

[tekkenfan]

If you really want it to stop, then you'd need capitalism to stop. Til then, its an opportunity and everyone is going to do what they gotta do to get some paper.

As much as fighters hate to do this, the hobbyists are the ones who pay the bills. Creating a gym that only caters to your competition team is a guarantee way to go bankrupt within a year. Seen this happen numerous times for different disciples (MMA, MT, BJJ, TKD); There needs to be a balance, with most of the gym having hobbyists. They're the ones who pay the bills and ultimately keep your doors open. This includes the occasional competitor who wants to challenge themselves, but not really all about the pro life for various reasons (work, family, etc). My guess is to follow the same plan that some of the larger MMA gyms have. Team Alpha Male, Tri-star, Rofus, all are known to be big name gyms, yet their programs for hobbyists are huge, which helps kept the doors open. People usually don't think put 2 + 2 with them and hobbysists because its not sexy, but its really a "hidden" market the fight game doesn't really talk about. The attention in the media is all about the fighters.

Dojo challenges wouldn't stop this "cancer" either. Say this happens, maybe in the beginning you'll have a tough school going around making waves "stealing" students and becoming monopoly of sorts by iron fisted type methods, like back in the day when the Gracies were going around going so. In a few months time (or year, depending on how fast they shift), you'll see rates going through the roof, new mandatory clothing, and more incentives to keep the cash flow will occur.

TLDR; gyms that are "fighter factories" are guaranteed to go bankrupt in a short time. Mcjodo-ism is not going away unless capitalism magically disappears.

uh oh dont say that.. the bernie lovers will come at you with torches wanting free jj

 

[yetanother]

If you really want it to stop, then you'd need capitalism to stop. Til then, its an opportunity and everyone is going to do what they gotta do to get some paper.

As much as fighters hate to do this, the hobbyists are the ones who pay the bills. Creating a gym that only caters to your competition team is a guarantee way to go bankrupt within a year. Seen this happen numerous times for different disciples (MMA, MT, BJJ, TKD); There needs to be a balance, with most of the gym having hobbyists. They're the ones who pay the bills and ultimately keep your doors open. This includes the occasional competitor who wants to challenge themselves, but not really all about the pro life for various reasons (work, family, etc). My guess is to follow the same plan that some of the larger MMA gyms have. Team Alpha Male, Tri-star, Rofus, all are known to be big name gyms, yet their programs for hobbyists are huge, which helps kept the doors open. People usually don't think put 2 + 2 with them and hobbysists because its not sexy, but its really a "hidden" market the fight game doesn't really talk about. The attention in the media is all about the fighters.

Dojo challenges wouldn't stop this "cancer" either. Say this happens, maybe in the beginning you'll have a tough school going around making waves "stealing" students and becoming monopoly of sorts by iron fisted type methods, like back in the day when the Gracies were going around going so. In a few months time (or year, depending on how fast they shift), you'll see rates going through the roof, new mandatory clothing, and more incentives to keep the cash flow will occur.

TLDR; gyms that are "fighter factories" are guaranteed to go bankrupt in a short time. Mcjodo-ism is not going away unless capitalism magically disappears.

There is a different between having a gym that teaches a sport to hobbyists and one that has self defense bjj with light rolling TMA style.

 

[SandisLL]

self defense with light rolling TMA style.

I think it should depend from client.
If gym will train self defense for hobbyist with average Joe level fitness and toughness
in the same manner as it is done for tough and strong guys, these hobbyists will be damaged…...
Especially because self defense classes usually include possible assiliant's attacks scenarios.
This include striking attacks.
Usually attacks include some striking too.
Not rarerly also non sport stuff : sucker punches, sucker kicks.

Drills and sparrings for self defense, sorry, are with striking too.
Not all of course, but still.
If we will put even local athlete in pair with local accountant and ask them go with 100% in standup grappling, for example…...

Ofc when hobbyist gets in shape and gets experience, rolls/ sparrings gradually might become medium level, later more harsh and then ….
If initially really harsh rolls, sparrings, then it will be like to put a guy with 1 month training in competitive bout.
-

 

[yetanother]

I think it should depend from client.
If gym will train self defense for hobbyist with average Joe level fitness and toughness
in the same manner as it is done for tough and strong guys, these hobbyists will be damaged…...
Especially because self defense classes usually include possible assiliant's attacks scenarios.
This include striking attacks.
Usually attacks include some striking too.
Not rarerly also non sport stuff : sucker punches, sucker kicks.

Drills and sparrings for self defense, sorry, are with striking too.
Not all of course, but still.
If we will put even local athlete in pair with local accountant and ask them go with 100% in standup grappling, for example…...

Ofc when hobbyist gets in shape and gets experience, rolls/ sparrings gradually might become medium level, later more harsh and then ….
If initially really harsh rolls, sparrings, then it will be like to put a guy with 1 month training in competitive bout.

Nope. Just have your self defense students do techniques and some light rolling from time to time once their get their blue belts. Obviously they will suck at street fighting but it doesn't matter at all as that is not something they will try out for real. See Gracie university for details.

 

[shunyata]

I'm ok with class requirements to get stripes at white belt and then do a test/crucible to get your blue. It gives new people goals and a reason to stick to it before they really know what BJJ is all about.

Who cares if someone shitty gets a brown belt and gets killed by everyone below him. Is that really going to make BJJ suffer? If someone like that visits my academy we'd all fuck him up and then move on with the day.

Yeah belt anxiety is kind of silly at it's heart.

In live combat sports, hang around more than 5 minutes and it's fairly clear what the hierarchy of expertise is in the room. Plenty of trainers and fighters get plenty of respect without any belts on. It's obvious who is real and who is not. This is only an issue when people just aren't training real at all and are never interacting with other gyms.

It's like an indoor plant. You need a certain amount of stress (wind, temperature variations, hard training in the case of the jiujitero) or the stem of the plant is weak. It snaps easily because it never HAD to make itself stronger.

 

[NSchoke]

you don't have to take rolling out of BJJ to water it down to a mcdojo level. you just have to take the resistance out of it.

but i'm glad that the fact you haven't heard about any (aside from this video) means that they don't exist despite a plethora of BJJ guys actually making videos of themselves calling out fake BJJ schools, black belts and teachers...

Who are the fake BJJ schools/black belts and teachers that came up in a way Firas is speaking of?

If you roll consistently for a 10 year stretch or so you're gonna be tough. Maybe not up to Danaher's standards but so what? Should only people who went to Ivy league schools get degrees?

 

[JohnPJones]

Who are the fake BJJ schools/black belts and teachers that came up in a way Firas is speaking of?

If you roll consistently for a 10 year stretch or so you're gonna be tough. Maybe not up to Danaher's standards but so what? Should only people who went to Ivy league schools get degrees?

if you roll with people who provide resistance you mean...
plenty of karate schools spar and 'fight' most lack any contact above light contact, and as a result their students can't actually fight.

 

[Evenflow80]

Unfortunately , I train at exactly a place like Firas describes: you get stripes and belts at a predetermined date (you can even see the mark on your card for when you are supposed to get it ). This is for everyone , regardless of skill or actual knowledge. As long as you show up even remotely consistently, you will get promoted.

I've spoken up about it. Got shot down by most of.my teammates except maybe a couple who agreed with me. I personally hate it. I've felt I was a disgrace to my purple belt . I made a topic here about it a couple of months ago, and people suggested I compete again or drop in on other gyms .

Since then I've done the latter . I live in San Diego so no shortage of world class BJJ gyms .

What I've learned is this : at the very LEAST, the fundamentals you learn ANYWHERE In BJJ are going to be the same . If you ROLL consistently amd against people on your level at least IT DOESNT matter where you do it , YOU WILL get better .

In the 3 famous gyms I've dropped in on ,paid the $25-40 mat fee, and rolled with about 13 different blues, purples , browns and blacks, I never felt out of my element . Never felt blown out of the water or that I was a white belt masquerading as a mcdojo purple . With the exception of a relatively well known purple world champ ( who smashed me worse than I've ever been smashed), everyone else I rolled with didnt feel better or worse than my teammates at my McDojo.

I was going to make a topic about my experiences with this or even just bump my old thread and update it, but never got around to it

I guess if it ever comes to the point where I'm smashing everyone at my gym regardless of their ranked then yeah its time to move on, but I'm no where near there at all and never will be , so everytime I go into my mcdojo and roll hard with my teammates , I'm getting better.

Anyways my two cents for what its worth