Was Chuck Liddell ever the best LHW in the world?

[jeff7b9]

He was the best in the UFC for a minute.

He had 2 nice long 7 fight wins streaks as a recall, winning almost all by ko. It was fun.

 

[DayV]

Frank Shamrock>Tito Ortiz>Randy Couture>Wanderlei Silva>Shogun Rua*>Rampage Jackson>Forrest Griffin>Rashad Evans>Lyoto Machida>Shogun Rua>Jon Jones

That's the historical order of the #1 LHWs in MMA.

Kazushi Sakuraba was actually #1 LHW,
so it goes Frank Shamrock > Sakuraba > Wanderlei

 

[Clark Rogers]

Chuck was one of the best.

Rampage had his number, for sure.

For me, it's really hard to pin "the best" on any of the names coming up in this thread, for reasons others mentioned. Even MMA math starts to break down because A beat B, B beat C, but C beat A.

IMO this was peak MMA and we were lucky to have a good sized group of dominant LHWs that probably all could've traded wins and losses on any given day.

Side note, Randy getting some undeserved hate in here. That guy is a legend, period.

 

[braveassault86]

Yes.

 

[braveassault86]

Chuck Liddell single-handedly popularized the sport of mma in the west.

 

[pankrat]

Chuck Liddell single-handedly popularized the sport of mma in the west.

*In USA

 

[Saye_mc]

There's an argument for Wand but not for Shogun at that time, i mean Chuck knocked out the dude who beat Shogun and Arona on the same night, with a sloppy ass kick while walking backwards, in the first round.

 

[Ghostoftheville]

The people who try and pretend it was definitely Pride always conveniently forget that these guys all merry-go-round themselves around this time and so it's impossible to actually say who definitely was the best. They were all trading wins and losses against each other.

Nobody was Jon Jones who stood head and shoulders above the rest.

Nobody forgets to say that, because it didn't happen.
Wandy ran the division for years until Rua won the GP. Those 2 never fought outside of their gym. Like most rankings the top guy beat everybody below him, or beat the top contenders who would beat everybody else. During that time W. Silva would only lose to Arona in his division who he would beat in the rematch.

Liddell beat the best available in Belfort, Ortiz and Couture but not the consensus best in the world, and lost when he had the chance.

It's no different than a bellator champ going to ufc and losing without becoming champ

 

[Daniel_LaRusso]

Chuck was in the mix but I never considered him the #1 LHW.

When he returned to the UFC and beat Randy twice, avenged his loss to Horn, his loss to Rampage still hung over him. It was widely accepted Pride had the more talent rich 205 division.

Still, in that time Rampage went on to lose to Wand and Shogun. I recall a lot of people on here thought Chuck would avenge his loss to Rampage as well but he didn’t. That kind of put Chuck’s case to bed.

Over all I feel Randy was the more overrated fighter. He never had a dominant streak and was basically a win one, lose one fighter his whole career.

 

[Taric]

Kazushi Sakuraba was actually #1 LHW,
so it goes Frank Shamrock > Sakuraba > Wanderlei

Sakuraba was ranked at HW and P4P, not 205.

The very first time Saku fought at 205 was at PRIDE 13, where he lost to Wand. I honestly don't think Saku even has a win at 205 in PRIDE at all.

 

[Ken's Sideburns]

Chuck was the inventor of sprawl and brawl ala mark Coleman being the godfather of ground and pound. Chuck was the first star to have knockout power along with the wrestling background to sprawl or pop up after being taken down. And because a lot of the top fighters were grapplers at the time chuck was very high up there as one of the best.

Everyone shits on his first rampage loss but doesn’t credit him for his overeem and merger win over there

 

[rex kramer]

I can see Sakuraba submitting him also.

No way Saku would ever get him down, or keep him down...or even get close to him without getting ko'd really.

 

[wlu.29]

No

Chuck > Wanderlei though

 

[old school 2]

Randy of this time was the UFC's LHW champion from 2003-2005, where he dominated and beat the living shit out of Chuck, Tito, and Vitor. The only fight he "lost" was the freak glove eye cut to Vitor, which again he immediately and brutally avenged. Randy at this period was a monster.

Furthermore, but the bracket Chuck was placed in in Pride ended up being Overeem, Rampage, and Wand. Randy definitely can win this bracket.

You don't know what you're talking about, and that's okay.

I don’t totally disagree but Pride’s rules and ring vs cage favors strikers where UFC’s cage and wrestling heavy scoring system favors wrestlers . Randy is a stud and one of the most loved fighters of all time but in The UFC he got wrecked by Chuck 2 out of 3 times and if he fought in Pride with their rules he probably gets wrecked but if they fought in the cage it favors Randy.

 

[rex kramer]

and on top of that he had a very protected run on top.

And you can't say there was no challengers, look who was over in Japan.

If Dana can be believed, they were trying like crazy to get Wand a fight with Chuck in the UFC, but Pride reneged. And I believe Dana on this one, since there's literally no chance he would've let Wand do that promo in the cage while wearing a Pride shirt if Wand wasn't supposed to come fight Chuck.

So there WERE challengers, but Pride wouldn't let them come fight Chuck on his own turf....which says a lot about how confident Pride was that their fighters could beat him.

 

[markg171]

Nobody forgets to say that, because it didn't happen.
Wandy ran the division for years until Rua won the GP. Those 2 never fought outside of their gym. Like most rankings the top guy beat everybody below him, or beat the top contenders who would beat everybody else. During that time W. Silva would only lose to Arona in his division who he would beat in the rematch.

Liddell beat the best available in Belfort, Ortiz and Couture but not the consensus best in the world, and lost when he had the chance.

It's no different than a bellator champ going to ufc and losing without becoming champ

Wand beats Rampage
Rampage beats Arona
Arona beats Wand
Wand (allegedly) beats Shogun
Shogun beats Rampage
Rampage beats Henderson
Forrest beats Shogun
Forrest beats Rampage
Henderson beats Wand
Wand beats Henderson
Shogun beats Forrest
Forrest beats Tito
Tito beats Forrest
Chuck beats Tito
Randy beats Chuck
Chuck beats Randy
Randy beats Vitor
Vitor beats Randy
Vitor beats Wand
Tito beats Vitor
Tito beats Wand
Henderson beats Vitor
Vitor beats Henderson

Etc.

Please, tell me more about how their was some universal Jon Jones-esque GOAT who was head and shoulders above the rest among these guys.

 

[Benji Snap]

The sentiment on these forums during that period generally ranked Chuck at around #5 at LHW. Most here considered Wand, Shogun, Rampage, Arona and Lil Nog all above Chuck.

 

[kenetics]

He went to Pride only 2 months after Randy spanked his ass.

It's one of the stupidest revisionist histories of the Pride fans to try and pretend that the best UFC LHW went over there and got run out despite going 1-1, and in a tournament he had to leave after losing as that's literally how tourneys work. The best LHW the UFC had was Randy, it's not debateable at that timeline.

The UFC specifically sent the guy they could afford to lose, and if he won, would just make Randy look better by comparison anyways.

Randy would've got beat in the ring too. His style is terrible for it.

 

[bambammccoy]

Randy would have got wrecked even worse in Pride, dude is literally the most overrated fighter in UFC history, he got gifted more title shots than Uriah Faber.

Name them then.

Only unreasonable title shot he got was against Tim.

 

[DayV]

Sakuraba was ranked at HW and P4P, not 205.

The very first time Saku fought at 205 was at PRIDE 13, where he lost to Wand. I honestly don't think Saku even has a win at 205 in PRIDE at all.

Sherdog
June 21, 2000
Middleweights (under 199)

1)Kazushi Sakuraba
2)Tito Ortiz
3) Dan Henderson
4) Murilo Bustamante
5) Vanderlei Silva
6)Renzo Gracie
7)Allan Goes
8) Vitor Belfort
9) Kiyoshi Tamura
10) Royce Gracie
https://web.archive.org/web/20000711051625/http://www.sherdog.com/main_top10a.html

MMA Media Top 10
March 5th, 2001
MIDDLEWEIGHTS 170 to 199.9 (77.1 kg to 90.7 kg)

1. Sakuraba, Kazushi (10) 150
1. Tito Ortiz (6) 150
3. Silva, Vanderlei 122
4. Shamrock, Frank 108
5. Henderson, Dan 73
6. Gracie, Renzo 47
7. Sinosic, Elvis 34
8. Goes, Allan 33
9. Belfort, Vitor 30
10. Horn, Jeremy 26
http://web.archive.org/web/20010409210253/http://www.grapplersworld.com:80/poll.htm



Stephen Quadros - Fightsport
pdated Monday 12-25-00
MIDDLEWEIGHT (under 200 lb/90 kg) Top Ten

1. Kazushi Sakuraba (Japan) - Spanked Ryan Gracie (Pride XII). Submitted Shannon Ritch (Pride XI). Broke Renzo Gracie's arm (Pride X). First man to defeat Royce Gracie in NHB (Pride GP 2000). Dominated Royler Gracie. First man to make Ebenezer Braga tap out. Outclassed Vitor Belfort. Submitted Carlos Newton and drew Allan Goes. Ultimate Japan heavyweight four man tournament winner. Takada dojo.

2. Frank Shamrock (USA) -
3. (tie) Tito Ortiz (USA)
3. (tie) Vanderlei Silva (Brazil)
4. Dan Henderson (USA)
5. Allan Goes (Brazil)
6. Jeremy Horn (USA)
7. Vitor Belfort (Brazil)
8. Yuki Kondo (Japan)
9. Ricardo Almieda (Brazil)
10. Akira Shoji (Japan)
https://web.archive.org/web/20010110062800/http://www.stephenquadros.com:80/FSN_NHB_Top_Ten.html