Social War Room Lounge v260: Pls no bully Geg

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Chillin' Nuts said:
Jack is right though. It's your big "L" in Trots/Jack debates.


Also this. Heath was a poor man's Chris O'Donnell, who is himself poor.
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There just isn't a strong argument for your side imo. It's the most decorated comic book movie of all-time. Has the most Oscar nominations, highest audience scores, and, until Black Panther, highest critical ratings of any film in the genre's history.

The great Roger Ebert gave it 4 stars - the only comic book/superhero movie to ever get that rating from him - and Ebert called it "one of the finest films ever made."

https://www.rogerebert.com/reviews/the-dark-knight-2008

"I didn't find it believable" or " I thought it was boring" aren't equally weighty arguments.
 
Trotsky said:
There just isn't a strong argument for your side imo. It's the most decorated comic book movie of all-time. Has the most Oscar nominations, highest audience scores, and, until Black Panther, highest critical ratings of any film in the genre's history.

The great Roger Ebert gave it 4 stars - the only comic book/superhero movie to ever get that rating from him - and Ebert called it "one of the finest films ever made."

https://www.rogerebert.com/reviews/the-dark-knight-2008

"I didn't find it believable" or " I thought it was boring" aren't equally weighty arguments.
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That's not really an argument, just that other people think it's great. There are plenty of respected film critics who don't. But what about the film being a piece of fascist propaganda?
 
essie said:
That's not really an argument, just that other people think it's great. There are plenty of respected film critics who don't.
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Regardless of whether they liked it, I'm not aware of any respected critics who said it was a bad film.

But what about the film being a piece of fascist propaganda?
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I think that's a dumb opinion, personally. If it's fascist propaganda, so is every piece in the Batman canon. Even among the trilogy, the criticism is most appropriate (though still inappropriate imo) for the third film.

What's perhaps worst about that opinion is that there is a film in the canon that actually *is* fascist propaganda (see The Dark Knight Returns by Frank Miller, where society is destroyed by female politicians and liberal bleeding hearts who refuse to kill subhuman "mutant" populations and insist the Joker is the product of systemic marginalization even as he kills journalists on live TV. That is, until Batman becomes a horse-riding religious figure leading a reactionary army against the mutants and restoring masculine realism).


https://www.theguardian.com/books/b...ist-dark-knight-modern-archetype-donald-trump
 
Chillin' Nuts said:
Jack is right though. It's your big "L" in Trots/Jack debates.


Also this. Heath was a poor man's Chris O'Donnell, who is himself poor.
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Well that’s just madness.
essie said:
That's not really an argument, just that other people think it's great. There are plenty of respected film critics who don't. But what about the film being a piece of fascist propaganda?
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Go on...
 
Trotsky said:
Regardless of whether they liked it, I'm not aware of any respected critics who said it was a bad film.



I think that's a dumb opinion, personally. If it's fascist propaganda, so is every piece in the Batman canon. Even among the trilogy, the criticism is most appropriate (though still inappropriate imo) for the third film.

What's perhaps worst about that opinion is that there is a film in the canon that actually *is* fascist propaganda (see The Dark Knight Returns by Frank Miller, where society is destroyed by female politicians and liberal bleeding hearts who refuse to kill subhuman "mutant" populations and insist the Joker is the product of systemic marginalization even as he kills journalists on live TV. That is, until Batman becomes a horse-riding religious figure leading a reactionary army against the mutants and restoring masculine realism).


https://www.theguardian.com/books/b...ist-dark-knight-modern-archetype-donald-trump
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I'm aware of the Dark Knight Returns but I don't know why its existence detracts from the very clear evidence in the film the Dark Knight that it is supportive of brutal fascism.
 
Surprised nobody has made a thread, or perhaps even seen it.

anybody see Tucker Carlson say that the 1965 immigration act was the greatest terrorist attack on America ?
 
Jesus H. Sherdog said:
Well that’s just madness.

Go on...
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"Alfred Pennyworth : With respect Master Wayne, perhaps this is a man that *you* don't fully understand, either. A long time ago, I was in Burma. My friends and I were working for the local government. They were trying to buy the loyalty of tribal leaders by bribing them with precious stones. But their caravans were being raided in a forest north of Rangoon by a bandit. So, we went looking for the stones. But in six months, we never met anybody who traded with him. One day, I saw a child playing with a ruby the size of a tangerine. The bandit had been throwing them away.

Bruce Wayne : So why steal them?

Alfred Pennyworth : Well, because he thought it was good sport. Because some men aren't looking for anything logical, like money. They can't be bought, bullied, reasoned, or negotiated with. Some men just want to watch the world burn."

The local government Alfred is working for would be the British in their occupation of Myanmar for a century. Alfred speaks of leveraging wealth as a means to influence tribe leaders. His example of a man he doesn't understand is a radical who stole his bargaining chip in an effort to subvert military influence in occupied land. This bandit is redistributing wealth against an imperialist power. Alfred concludes that this man could not be influenced by money, which he lists as illogical. This is an almost direct nod to fascist capitalism. He says they can't be bullied. Again, he is saying this is a negative. He says that this mans actions, which hurt no one, were tantamont to burning the world.

Later Batman asks Alfred how he caught the bandit. Alfred replies "we burnt the forest down". Alfred is literally describing burning the world to rid itself of radical resistors and it is being framed as just.

This is just a small example as there are many.
 
essie said:
I'm aware of the Dark Knight Returns but I don't know why its existence detracts from the very clear evidence in the film the Dark Knight that it is supportive of brutal fascism.
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It doesn't. I just don't think that very clear evidence exists at all.

In fact, if anything I think it's more arguably anti-fascist, from its presentation of the ethical dilemma between encroachment of the security state and the upholding of social contracts to its climax where criminals and civilians alike make an ethical choice to spare one another without guidance or intervention from the political or spiritual leader.

A fascist rendering would cast the imposition of a security state as being a good thing rather than a sin borne by an antihero. It would cast criminals as fundamentally bad and political decision making as fundamentally good.
 
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