War Room Lounge v136: I Have No Mouth And I Must Ooof

[DarkneT]

HBK's matches are overrated. The Taker matches, the HHH matches, good, but "GOAT matches" not even close. He has had some good matches against lesser guys, but definitely not against higher guys. Bret brings out the best matches in anything he touches. Bret had real classic purely amazing 10/10 wrestling matches with Bulldog, multiple with Owen (WMX, SummerSlam 94), Benoit, Austin, Mr. Perfect, Diesel in 95 (of all people), etc. Most of those dudes best match in their career was with Bret. The 1-2-3 Kid as an unknown local had the best match of his career, and probably the best match in RAW history against Bret. HBK can't make these statements without throwing in overrated spotfests like the Taker/HHH matches.



No, HBK was a known ratings killer. His "Childhood Dream" storyline during his first title run was a complete tank. Vince wanted to go with Vader in SS 96 due to him too, but HBK politicked his way into keeping the belt. Then he was repackaged as a way of fixing his fails (how bad are you that you have to be repackaged as the headliner). His loss and then re-win of the title in early 97 was supposed to gain him sympathy because Sid was so big/mean, but it didn't work, so Vince wanted to go back to Bret as the headliner at WM13. HBK threw a fit and refused to lose to Bret, so he faked an injury, "lost his smile", and forfeit the belt. Taker won it at WM13.

In late 97, he ran the DX gimmick and still wasn't a draw. This was blamed on WCW being at it's peak, but I don't buy this because with all their issues, if you look at the numbers for RAW weekly, after Austin won at WM14, TWO WEEKS LATER with Austin in the main event as champion they beat WCW for the first time in almost two years. This is the biggest tell imo.

Then there's HBK's return in '02. They treated it like the second coming of Jesus, yet again, he still wasn't a draw. So much so, that he won both the hardcore match at SS and the title at Survivor Series from HHH, and did such low ratings that Vince took the title from him a month later.

Etc. Could go on, but dude was never the guy WWE pretended he was. Bret was a big draw in the early 90s when headlining even though the WWE product kinda sucked, and drew nothing in WCW. But HBK was never a draw his entire career.

ive heard Cornette hint that Shawn and vince were fucking
And I legit believe it.
He was a mess.. a bad bad druggy and was politicking all over the place, he had something on Vince for sure especially after Hall and Nash bolted
Maybe before the left you could argue, easily 3 top names wild revolt together and that would be a problem.
But after that? He was still at it, he had something on Vince.

that being said I disagree about his matches, they were every bit as good as Brets.
His cell match with taker is the goat HIAC.

 

[My Spot]

I don't watch anymore, but have you seen Kenny Omega or Kazuchika Okada? Saw the match that Meltzer gave 7 stars to, and while I don't think it lived up to that, they were really, really good.

Meltzer also said that Hogan is the biggest box office draw of all-time...

 

[My Spot]

ive heard Cornette hint that Shawn and vince were fucking
And I legit believe it.
He was a mess.. a bad bad druggy and was politicking all over the place, he had something on Vince for sure especially after Hall and Nash bolted
Maybe before the left you could argue, easily 3 top names wild revolt together and that would be a problem.
But after that? He was still at it, he had something on Vince.

that being said I disagree about his matches, they were every bit as good as Brets.
His cell match with taker is the goat HIAC.

A lot of guys have said that but Corny also hates HBK since his current wife fucked Shawn back in 93.

 

[CubicleGangster]

Not even to fart?

Doubtful, really

 

[The Diplomat]

I don't know the numbers, but Michaels got more great matches against bums than anyone in the history of the game (at least to the point that I stopped watching). Bret could work with a better variety of styles, maybe, but never had a match as good as the ladder matches, probably, and definitely not with someone as mediocre as Razor.

Razor wasn't mediocre, Scott Hall was a wonderful worker. And Bret had better matches than the ladder match, even though he and HBK had the first one in 1992. His matches with his brother Owen and brother in law British Bulldog are better than the WM10 ladder match.

The thing about Bret Hart, for wrestling fans, they'd have to really struggle to find a bad match from him. He turned the 123 Kidd/Sean Waltman into a great wrestler for one night. Even his stupid gimmick matches against Jerry Lawler were good. HBK, as great as he was, was more likely to have a bad night than Bret, due to drugs and his attitude.

 

[The Diplomat]

This post is excellent.

Saying Scott Hall was mediocre? Lol, ofcourse it was excellent

 

[BarryDillon]

I don't watch anymore, but have you seen Kenny Omega or Kazuchika Okada? Saw the match that Meltzer gave 7 stars to, and while I don't think it lived up to that, they were really, really good.

I really just posted that to poke at False, but I do think he's on par with those guys, both of whom are excellent.

 

[BarryDillon]

Saying Scott Hall was mediocre? Lol, ofcourse it was excellent

He was definitely a mediocre worker.

 

[MMAisGod]

Angle was better than either of them.

Kurt is the GOAT wrestler imo, so no argument from me there. Kurt would put on a 5 star with hippo.

The RR ladder matches are both in the running for GOAT match in the promotion, and HBK had a great match with Angle, and of course a couple with Bret, plus the threeway. Not true that he couldn't have great matches with top guys, though his specialty was definitely carrying lesser guys (good skill for a main eventer). I agree that Bret is one of the best ever so no need to make that point. I'm arguing less about HBK vs. Bret (though I give it to Michaels) than about your claim that Michaels is one of the most overrated wrestlers in history. If you did a list of the top 30 matches in WWF history, probably a quarter of them involved HBK, and most of those were working with guys who weren't that good themselves.

Don't get me wrong he was really good, great, really great. But I think he's overrated in the sense that every time there's a "best wrestler" poll, especially from WWE or fan based poll, he's always top 3, sometimes even #1. It's beyond absurd how high he is consistently rated when he never really had an argument for it. Some good/great matches, some classics yea I agree there but not as many as others and he never was the best wrestler like the best wrestlers, never drew a penny at any stage of his career, and never transcended wrestling like Hogan/Rock/Austin/Cena/etc. So where does "Top 3 ever undisputed" fit in? For him to always be in this "GOAT" consideration I find him probably the most overrated wrestler ever. In WWE's top 50 matches they had last year, ALL FOUR of the Taker/HHH mania matches were part of it. It's like insanely insane. HBK would likely make the bottom of my top 10, more likely top 15, but in the infamous words of HHH, a B+ player.

Seth Rollins is the best worker on the planet right now.

If Omega didn't faceplant so hard in AEW I'd challenge this, but Jesus Seth is his best work so far.

 

[The Diplomat]

He was definitely a mediocre worker.

Nah, he was pretty good until 97 when he became a total alcoholic.

 

[Andy Capp]

Yea, so much for that second wave in September. It’s already here two months early.

So was

My city fucking sucks

under 150k population, have had over 230 shootings already this year

Yes. Yes, it does. On the other hand, all three people in the Aubrey case were charged with murder finally, so there's that.

 

[Andy Capp]

So, anyone want to catch me up on the 2 mod defrockings and the beta devil banning? All I'm aware of is they happened and the curiosity about the circumstances is building in my brain.

 

[BarryDillon]

So, anyone want to catch me up on the 2 mod defrockings and the beta devil banning? All I'm aware of is they happened and the curiosity about the circumstances is building in my brain.

What other mod besides Fogie was defrocked?

 

[MMAisGod]

I don't watch anymore, but have you seen Kenny Omega or Kazuchika Okada? Saw the match that Meltzer gave 7 stars to, and while I don't think it lived up to that, they were really, really good.

It was part story, part match, but yea elite matches they had. Both were probably the best in the world, but they've both kind of been coasting as of late so it's not fair to give them the same rep we would have in their current performances lately.

ive heard Cornette hint that Shawn and vince were fucking
And I legit believe it.
He was a mess.. a bad bad druggy and was politicking all over the place, he had something on Vince for sure especially after Hall and Nash bolted
Maybe before the left you could argue, easily 3 top names wild revolt together and that would be a problem.
But after that? He was still at it, he had something on Vince.

that being said I disagree about his matches, they were every bit as good as Brets.
His cell match with taker is the goat HIAC.

There were a lot of those rumors around that time. So much so I almost want to believe it. Can't picture it being true, but I also wouldn't be surprised if it was given so many wrestlers saying it at the time.

Meltzer also said that Hogan is the biggest box office draw of all-time...

He was. Which is why any Top 3 without Hogan is invalid.

 

[HockeyBjj]

Yes. Yes, it does. On the other hand, all three people in the Aubrey case were charged with murder finally, so there's that.

That's not my city, but yeah I had seen that. Good

That trial makes me nervous though. Video shows they all instigated it and as thus should lose the right to claim self defense, but at the end there it does look like Aubrey did go for the gun (his would have been justifiable self defense if he succeeded) and a good lawyer might be able to at least argue that into creating a reasonable doubt that this was indeed a murder.

 

[MMAisGod]

What other mod besides Fogie was defrocked?

The one who thinks you're poor.

 

[HockeyBjj]

What other mod besides Fogie was defrocked?

@Revolver also took his final knee

I hadn't seen @computer fogie was no longer blue. Did Ripskater in the end get his way?

 

[Jack V Savage]

Razor wasn't mediocre, Scott Hall was a wonderful worker. And Bret had better matches than the ladder match, even though he and HBK had the first one in 1992. His matches with his brother Owen and brother in law British Bulldog are better than the WM10 ladder match.

Disagree about Bret having better matches than either of the HBK/RR ladder matches, though Bret vs. Owen at WMX was close. And, no, Hall was not close to being "wonderful." What was his best match with someone who wasn't much better than him carrying him?

Don't get me wrong he was really good, great, really great. But I think he's overrated in the sense that every time there's a "best wrestler" poll, especially from WWE or fan based poll, he's always top 3, sometimes even #1. It's beyond absurd how high he is consistently rated when he never really had an argument for it. Some good/great matches, some classics yea I agree there but not as many as others and he never was the best wrestler like the best wrestlers, never drew a penny at any stage of his career, and never transcended wrestling like Hogan/Rock/Austin/Cena/etc. So where does "Top 3 ever undisputed" fit in? For him to always be in this "GOAT" consideration I find him probably the most overrated wrestler ever. In WWE's top 50 matches they had last year, ALL FOUR of the Taker/HHH mania matches were part of it. It's like insanely insane. HBK would likely make the bottom of my top 10, more likely top 15, but in the infamous words of HHH, a B+ player.

I think it would be pretty hard to come up with 10 WWE guys who were better than Michaels without seriously stretching. DK, Bret, Benoit, Eddie, Angle, and ...? I don't agree with all of those, and I think you could reasonably put HBK No. 1, but I'll give you all of those as being plausible. I'm sure I'm overlooking someone (I considered Owen and Misterio, but I don't think there's a case), but I don't see how he's out of the top 10.

 

[CubicleGangster]

Some dude is suing Twitch for millions over his sex addiction and the existence of "boobie" streamers

Just gonna leave this here:

 

[Lead]

Fogie stepped down and had been thinking of it for awhile. The guy modded for over a decade and decided he’d be happier just posting going forward.