Social War Room Lounge Thread #325: PotWR Edition

[Islam Imamate]

Yeah man. Whatever you say.

Do you disagree that making it easier to build more housing will make housing more affordable?

 

[Rob Battisti]

Do you disagree that making it easier to build more housing will make housing more affordable?

I disagree with your entire position.

Should we allow communities to self govern?

 

[Islam Imamate]

I disagree with your entire position.

Which parts exactly?

Should we allow communities to self govern?

Sure in some respects but not to the extent you do because I believe people should be allowed to build housing by right. There are limits to that even in my view but in a single family neighborhood you should be allowed to build an ADU/ACU or convert a single family home into a multiplex of some kind with minimal red tape.

 

[Limbo Pete]

Which parts exactly?

Sure in some respects but not to the extent you do because I believe people should be allowed to build housing by right. There are limits to that even in my view but in a single family neighborhood you should be allowed to build an ADU/ACU or convert a single family home into a multiplex of some kind with minimal red tape.

It's a crude but often effective rhetorical tactic. Appeal to a basic sense of fairness/democracy while disingenuously knowing that system will provide things you're financially, socially, politically etc. aligned with. And the opposition has to then posture against "freedom of choice". That's why you're having trouble nailing him down on a position, while he's trying to make you defensive about yours.

 

[LangfordBarrow]

Your position: little to no zoning laws.

My position: let the zoning laws be set by the communities themselves.

If we're just talking about affordability allowing communities to zone themselves is going to increase prices.

 

[Islam Imamate]

It's a crude but often effective rhetorical tactic. Appeal to a basic sense of fairness/democracy while disingenuously knowing that system will provide things you're financially, socially, politically etc. aligned with. And the opposition has to then posture against "freedom of choice". That's why you're having trouble nailing him down on a position, while he's trying to make you defensive about yours.

Well said.

No one would accept this argument, that communities should be allowed to govern themselves, if the question at hand was racial segregation.

I think there are some matters that should not be up to local government and that people should be allowed, within certain limits, to build housing by right on their property. I understand not wanting a skyscraper in the middle of a single family neighborhood but renovating a single family home into a duplex and adding an ADU should not be controversial.

 

[Limbo Pete]

Well said.

No one would accept this argument, that communities should be allowed to govern themselves, if the question at hand was racial segregation.

But they used to, right? That kind of framing was very common in middle century civil rights America. It gives the guise of moderation while divorcing any particular individual from the very-much-not-moderate consequences. And while it wasn't effective re: segregation (past a certain point) it still flourishes in other areas

 

[Rob Battisti]

Forgive me for not wanting to completely eliminate agency for average Americans.

 

[Mr Holmes]

Forgive me for not wanting to completely eliminate agency for average Americans.

You know the argument is weak when they jump right to: "its racist".

 

[Rob Battisti]

You know the argument is weak when they jump right to: "its racist".

My position is literally how the world currently works. Of course its racist

 

[Islam Imamate]

Forgive me for not wanting to completely eliminate agency for average Americans.

That's what you're advocating for, that Americans have less agency. I want them to be able to build on their property but you disagree.

You know the argument is weak when they jump right to: "its racist".

My position is literally how the world currently works. Of course its racist

Where did I say Rob is racist? If anything I implied the opposite.

I think if anything the fact that you two dodge the substance of the argument in favor of this kind of deflection.

 

[Mr Holmes]

That's what you're advocating for, that Americans have less agency. I want them to be able to build on their property but you disagree.


Where did I say Rob is racist? If anything I implied the opposite.

I think if anything the fact that you two dodge the substance of the argument in favor of this kind of deflection.

I believe segregation was brought up. I'm not a fan of restrictive zoning laws, but I'm also not a fan of letting developers do whatever they want.

 

[Islam Imamate]

I believe segregation was brought up.

Yes in this post

No one would accept this argument, that communities should be allowed to govern themselves, if the question at hand was racial segregation.

With the implication being that Rob wouldn't support segregation. How did you twist that in your head to mean the opposite?

I'm not a fan of restrictive zoning laws, but I'm also not a fan of letting developers do whatever they want.

Obviously there should be some limits but people like Rob don't even think you should be allowed to build a granny flat in your backyard or convert a SFH into duplex. That's pretty extreme imo.

 

[Mr Holmes]

With the implication being that Rob wouldn't support segregation. How did you twist that in your head to mean the opposite?

Okay, maybe I misunderstood.

 

[Rob Battisti]

Yes in this post

With the implication being that Rob wouldn't support segregation. How did you twist that in your head to mean the opposite?

Obviously there should be some limits but people like Rob don't even think you should be allowed to build a granny flat in your backyard or convert a SFH into duplex. That's pretty extreme imo.

Extreme = literally the norm of todays suburban America

 

[Islam Imamate]

Extreme = literally the norm of todays suburban America

Which is why we have a housing crisis across the country and why states and cities are passing zoning reform.

 

[Rob Battisti]

Which is why we have a housing crisis across the country and why states and cities are passing zoning reform.

So normal behavior is extreme? You see how it’s hard to take you seriously

 

[Islam Imamate]

So normal behavior is extreme? You see how it’s hard to take you seriously

I think it's extreme to limit people's property rights to that extent and it explains why housing is so unaffordable right now.

 

[Rob Battisti]

I think it's extreme to limit people's property rights to that extent and it explains why housing is so unaffordable right now.

and communities have the right to rezone as they see fit

 

[Islam Imamate]

and communities have the right to rezone as they see fit

Unless the state decides to upzone which California did in 2021 and which more states are looking into. Better to go over the heads of local NIMBYs and go straight to the state capital for real reform.