Television WANDAVISION Discussion (Dragonlord's Review)

[KnightTemplar]

Of course, no argument there. As I said, fair enough. But I think it matters that he did not just the same thing to Wanda, but really something worse imo given that his crimes came from a place of greed and negligence rather than coersion. Actually seeing that scene really drove home how much he changed as a character/person. And by god, if I was Sokovian, I sure would have a bone to pick with that guy lol. The chuds that claim super hero movies aren't dynamic can really just eat my entire ass.

Well, there's a difference between someone creating the weapon that someone used to kill your family, and someone beating and strangling your mother and father to death with his bare hands. Wanda and Pietro focussed all their rage on Stark, because it was his name on the missile. But he didn't fire it at them. It's debateable, given the timeline, that Tony even knew the weapons had been sold to whatever faction used them in Sokovia. Hell, Obadiah Stane probably sold them under the table while Stark was spending his time inventing new tech, getting drunk and fucking super models.

If Wanda and Pietro had wanted true revenge, they should have gone after whoever actually fired the missiles, rather than the guy who designed them.

 

[Batjester]

Well, there's a difference between someone creating the weapon that someone used to kill your family, and someone beating and strangling your mother and father to death with his bare hands. Wanda and Pietro focussed all their rage on Stark, because it was his name on the missile. But he didn't fire it at them. It's debateable, given the timeline, that Tony even knew the weapons had been sold to whatever faction used them in Sokovia. Hell, Obadiah Stane probably sold them under the table while Stark was spending his time inventing new tech, getting drunk and fucking super models.

If Wanda and Pietro had wanted true revenge, they should have gone after whoever actually fired the missiles, rather than the guy who designed them.

 

[Limbo Pete]

Well, there's a difference between someone creating the weapon that someone used to kill your family, and someone beating and strangling your mother and father to death with his bare hands. Wanda and Pietro focussed all their rage on Stark, because it was his name on the missile. But he didn't fire it at them. It's debateable, given the timeline, that Tony even knew the weapons had been sold to whatever faction used them in Sokovia. Hell, Obadiah Stane probably sold them under the table while Stark was spending his time inventing new tech, getting drunk and fucking super models.

If Wanda and Pietro had wanted true revenge, they should have gone after whoever actually fired the missiles, rather than the guy who designed them.

Ehhhh, that's getting mealy mouthed imo. It was his shit and he was responsible. As I said, greed and negligence. But those are conscious choices. What happened to Bucky is on par with Clint having to kill all those people while zonked out by the mind stone.

 

[KnightTemplar]

Ehhhh, that's getting mealy mouthed imo. It was his shit and he was responsible. As I said, greed and negligence. But those are conscious choices. What happened to Bucky is on par with Clint having to kill all those people while zonked out by the mind stone.

As I said: there's no evidence Stark even knew the weapons had been sold to whatever faction used them to kill Wanda's parents.

Where does that shit end? Is someone entitled to seek revenge on the CEO of Glock Ges because some gang member shot their parents dead with a 9mm during a carjacking?

 

[Limbo Pete]

As I said: there's no evidence Stark even knew the weapons had been sold to whatever faction used them to kill Wanda's parents.

Where does that shit end? Is someone entitled to seek revenge on the CEO of Glock Ges because some gang member shot their parents dead with a 9mm during a carjacking?

And there's the crux: negligence and greed. In terms of the character, he at best didn't care to pay attention. He neglected ethics and oversight of missles literally with his name on the side and a lot of people paid the price. Having that scene described in Age of Ultron was one thing, but actually seeing it in this show was pretty impactful.

 

[KnightTemplar]

And there's the crux: negligence and greed. In terms of the character, he at best didn't care to pay attention. He neglected ethics and oversight of missles literally with his name on the side and a lot of people paid the price. Having that scene described in Age of Ultron was one thing, but actually seeing it in this show was pretty impactful.

And again: you can't blame the CEO for every single misuse of the weapons his company produces. Especially if said weapons are being sold illegally without his knowledge.

Look, I like Wanda. But she's not exactly the sharpest tool in the box. As Agatha pointed out,

"So your reaction to the bombing of your apartment and the murder of your parents was to join...an anti-freedom terrorist organisation?"

I love me some HYDRA; if they existed in the real world, I'd probably sign up. But I'm a border-line psychopath, not an Avenger

 

[Limbo Pete]

And again: you can't blame the CEO for every single misuse of the weapons his company produces. Especially if said weapons are being sold illegally without his knowledge.

Look, I like Wanda. But she's not exactly the sharpest tool in the box. As Agatha pointed out,

"So your reaction to the bombing of your apartment and the murder of your parents was to join...an anti-freedom terrorist organisation?"

I love me some HYDRA; if they existed in the real world, I'd probably sign up. But I'm a border-line psychopath, not an Avenger

We're talking about weapons of war. Like, massive bombs. You can't just foist off responsibility for that stuff when your company supplies bloodthirsty regimes and shit. Negligence isn't an excuse. And I'm not saying Wanda gets a pass for joining Hyrda lol. But it all certainly makes more sense actually getting to see what happened.

 

[KnightTemplar]

We're talking about weapons of war. Like, massive bombs. You can't just foist off responsibility for that stuff when your company supplies bloodthirsty regimes and shit. Negligence isn't an excuse. And I'm not saying Wanda gets a pass for joining Hyrda lol. But it all certainly makes more sense actually getting to see what happened.

Again: Stane was dealing with groups like the Ten Rings long before Tony was kidnapped in Afghanistan. There is no evidence to suggest that he even knew his weapons were being sold to Sokovian factions, much less allowed it.

Negligence isn't an excuse? Then were does that leave Wanda? How much damage and potential loss of life did the Hulk cause when he went on a rampage while under her influence in AoU?

 

[Limbo Pete]

Again: Stane was dealing with groups like the Ten Rings long before Tony was kidnapped in Afghanistan. There is no evidence to suggest that he even knew his weapons were being sold to Sokovian factions, much less allowed it.

All we have is what actually happened or is reference in the stories. It was his company, they did make the bombs, and Wanda had to watch a Stark bomb kill her parents and then trap her under a bed for 2 days waiting to die. And then the life of an orphan in a war torn country. It's visceral. It's a major fuckup on the part of that character. You can't just wash away someone's crimes due to negligence. It reads a lot differently than someone like Clint, who did all those horrible things under literal mind control. I put Bucky in that same category, and Natasha as well to at least some extent.

Negligence isn't an excuse? Then were does that leave Wanda? How much damage and potential loss of life did the Hulk cause when he went on a rampage while under her influence in AoU?

It leaves her up a creek, too, like plenty of the other characters. You can understand why something happened without condoning it; her and her brother really caused a lot of pain and damage by joining Hydra and doing things like turning an enraged Hulk loose. If someone came up to her and said hey, you got my family squashed in Africa, she would really have to answer for that imo. Or just look at this show: she's controlling an entire town full of people like puppets because she can't wrestle with her own grief. On the other side of the coin, her character got way way too much of the blame for the Crossbones bomb fiasco. All she did there was fail in an effort to stop it after it happened, and Ross focused on her as some sort of lunatic while everybody else got to go free (including the guy that built an evil robot which leveled a city).

 

[KnightTemplar]

All we have is what actually happened or is reference in the stories. It was his company, they did make the bombs, and Wanda had to watch a Stark bomb kill her parents and then trap her under a bed for 2 days waiting to die. And then the life of an orphan in a war torn country. It's visceral. It's a major fuckup on the part of that character. You can't just wash away someone's crimes due to negligence. It reads a lot differently than someone like Clint, who did all those horrible things under literal mind control. I put Bucky in that same category, and Natasha as well to at least some extent.

It leaves her up a creek, too, like plenty of the other characters. You can understand why something happened without condoning it; her and her brother really caused a lot of pain and damage by joining Hydra and doing things like turning an enraged Hulk loose. If someone came up to her and said hey, you got my family squashed in Africa, she would really have to answer for that imo. Or just look at this show: she's controlling an entire town full of people like puppets because she can't wrestle with her own grief. On the other side of the coin, her character got way way too much of the blame for the Crossbones bomb fiasco. All she did there was fail in an effort to stop it after it happened, and Ross focused on her as some sort of lunatic while everybody else got to go free (including the guy that built an evil robot which leveled a city).

Regarding Thunderbolt Ross: his line about the Avengers losing the equivalent of two Nukes - Thor and the Hulk - rings somewhat hollow when one takes into account he was responsible for creating the Abomination and the deaths of US soldiers at Blonsky's hands.

But I still think blaming Tony for the missile attack is too much of a reach. Otherwise, to return to my previous analogy, one would have to blame the CEO's of Glock, Sig-Saur, Colt etc for every murder committed with one of their weapons.

 

[Aegon Spengler]

Regarding Thunderbolt Ross: his line about the Avengers losing the equivalent of two Nukes - Thor and the Hulk - rings somewhat hollow when one takes into account he was responsible for creating the Abomination and the deaths of US soldiers at Blonsky's hands.

But I still think blaming Tony for the missile attack is too much of a reach. Otherwise, to return to my previous analogy, one would have to blame the CEO's of Glock, Sig-Saur, Colt etc for every murder committed with one of their weapons.

Well, let's say your parents get shot and someone drops the glock in front of you. You're trapped in front of it and that glock has the name of the CEO of glock industries on it.

Then you look on TV and you see that guy drinking, inventing things, being promiscuous and just generally enjoying life. You're a vulnerable little kid and a terrorist group says "hey, that guy who sells those guns, he laughs while you bleed."

After that you're off in the wind man.

 

[Limbo Pete]

Regarding Thunderbolt Ross: his line about the Avengers losing the equivalent of two Nukes - Thor and the Hulk - rings somewhat hollow when one takes into account he was responsible for creating the Abomination and the deaths of US soldiers at Blonsky's hands.

YES

But I still think blaming Tony for the missile attack is too much of a reach. Otherwise, to return to my previous analogy, one would have to blame the CEO's of Glock, Sig-Saur, Colt etc for every murder committed with one of their weapons.

I just don't buy that as an accurate comparison. He made weapons of mass destruction; you need to pay attention to who and where those are going to (which he did not do)

 

[Aegon Spengler]

YES

I just don't buy that as an accurate comparison. He made weapons of mass destruction; you need to pay attention to who and where those are going to (which he did not do)

Yeah he's a super genius. He gave life to AI. He wielded the infinity gauntlet. But he never bothered to check where his missiles landed, until Iron Man 1.

 

[Limbo Pete]

Yeah he's a super genius. He gave life to AI. He wielded the infinity gauntlet. But he never bothered to check where his missiles landed, until Iron Man 1.

 

[FyrFytr998]

Ehhhh, that's getting mealy mouthed imo. It was his shit and he was responsible. As I said, greed and negligence. But those are conscious choices. What happened to Bucky is on par with Clint having to kill all those people while zonked out by the mind stone.

So weapons can’t be stolen? How is that Tony’s problem? Next you’ll tell me that gun manufacturers should be liable for the actions of criminals.

 

[KnightTemplar]

Well, let's say your parents get shot and someone drops the glock in front of you. You're trapped in front of it and that glock has the name of the CEO of glock industries on it.

Then you look on TV and you see that guy drinking, inventing things, being promiscuous and just generally enjoying life. You're a vulnerable little kid and a terrorist group says "hey, that guy who sells those guns, he laughs while you bleed."

After that you're off in the wind man.

Wanda and Pietro were in their late teens when they joined Hydra. And even Agatha pointed out that joining arguably the world's most dangerous terrorist organisation was probably not the healthiest or most logical response to losing their parents in what was, for all intents and purposes, a terrorist attack.

Wanda's had an incredibly shitty run of luck. She's up there with the Punisher when it comes to depressing origin stories. But that doesn't absolve her of making very poor decisions.

 

[Kforcer]

I don't watch any of the Marvel stuff, but as a guy who has read countless older Marvel comics, I am curious--are they (Quicksilver and Scarlet Witch) Magneto's children in this continuity?

 

[Cool Hand Luke]

I don't watch any of the Marvel stuff, but as a guy who has read countless older Marvel comics, I am curious--are they (Quicksilver and Scarlet Witch) Magneto's children in this continuity?

not yet.

 

[Aegon Spengler]

Wanda and Pietro were in their late teens when they joined Hydra. And even Agatha pointed out that joining arguably the world's most dangerous terrorist organisation was probably not the healthiest or most logical response to losing their parents in what was, for all intents and purposes, a terrorist attack.

Wanda's had an incredibly shitty run of luck. She's up there with the Punisher when it comes to depressing origin stories. But that doesn't absolve her of making very poor decisions.

That’s true.


What absolves her of her poor decisions is her hotness.

 

[Deleted member 579584]