Waco: Madman or Messiah

[Guestx]

I know a handful of us are watching the Waco mini-series on the Paramount Network, but has anyone watched the recent A&E documentary on the subject, Waco: Madman or Messiah?

I just finished it up and it's pretty interesting. I've watched a few documentaries on the Waco incident and it's one of the better ones I've seen. If you're interested, it should be easy to find, and for anyone who has Comcast it's currently available OnDemand through A&E.

It's two episodes, about an hour and 15 minutes each.

 

[Thundarr]

Koresh was working that Jim Jones angle, didn't have enough time for that special Kool Aid. Crazy is crazy. Hindsight is 20/20 with regard to force used by the government in taking control of that compound in Waco.

 

[Jack Reacheround]

What kind of question is that? I know it’s just the title, but that’s like doing a WWII documentary called “Hitler: genocidal maniac or artist”?

 

[Guestx]

Koresh was working that Jim Jones angle, didn't have enough time for that special Kool Aid. Crazy is crazy. Hindsight is 20/20 with regard to force used by the government in taking control of that compound in Waco.

I do think that he was crazy but I wouldn't group him with Jim Jones. I think that Jones was an intentional deceiver, but I think that Koresh genuinely believed in the shit he was saying.

 

[Guestx]

What kind of question is that? I know it’s just the title, but that’s like doing a WWII documentary called “Hitler: genocidal maniac or artist”?

LOL

A similar thought crossed my mind, but I think that it may be because some of the surviving members of the Branch Davidians still think that Koresh was a prophet of God, and some even say he was Jesus himself.

This actually is one of the most interesting aspects about the Davidians. A lot of other ex-members of cults, if you catch them years down the road after it all fell apart, were like, "Yeah, that dude was out of control! Shit was crazy! I wanted to leave but I couldn't get away!" With several of these guys though, some of them still think that Koresh was a prophet, while others at least maintain that they were just practicing their right to religious freedom and the government should go fuck themselves.

 

[Jack Reacheround]

LOL

A similar thought crossed my mind, but I think that it may be because some of the surviving members of the Branch Davidians still think that Koresh was a prophet of God, and some even say he was Jesus himself.

This actually is one of the most interesting aspects about the Davidians. A lot of other ex-members of cults, if you catch them years down the road after it all fell apart, were like, "Yeah, that dude was out of control! Shit was crazy! I wanted to leave but I couldn't get away!" With several of these guys though, some of them still think that Koresh was a prophet, while others at least maintain that they were just practicing their right to religious freedom and the government should go fuck themselves.

I’m guessing it’s that way with a lot of cults.

 

[Thundarr]

I do think that he was crazy but I wouldn't group him with Jim Jones. I think that Jones was an intentional deceiver, but I think that Koresh genuinely believed in the shit he was saying.

Both were fucking crazy, but more importantly, the people going along with them were fucking crazy. Jones was allotted the time to demonstrate a higher level of crazy. Koresh could have been planning a large scale assault upon near by cities for all we know, just didn't get a chance to implement his magnum opus.

 

[Guestx]

I’m guessing it’s that way with a lot of cults.

I dunno, I've seen a lot of stuff about cults that end badly and a lot of the time, when the people are able to get outside the cult and gain some perspective, don't have nice things to say when they look back on the experience.

One of the things a guy said in the doc that stuck with me was essentially this (I'm paraphrasing): We were just exercising our first amendment right to religious freedom. When the very people who are supposed to be protecting that right come and attack you, then who do you call for protection?

That's heavy shit.

 

[Guestx]

Koresh could have been planning a large scale assault upon near by cities for all we know, just didn't get a chance to implement his magnum opus.

I don't think it's fair to speculate like that. If we're going to judge people, then let's do it on the basis of what they've actually done, not what they might do in the future. There is no evidence that Koresh or the Davidians had any offensive plans of attack. All of their weapons training was to get ready for the day when the government (Babylon) came and attacked them first, and sure enough that day did come.

 

[BisexualMMA]

Koresh is to Waco as Shadow Priest is to the Sherdog Movie Club.

 

[Guestx]

Koresh is to Waco as Shadow Priest is to the Sherdog Movie Club.

LOL

Why don't you hit us with some real thoughts on the Waco incident. And have you seen Waco: Madman or Messiah?

 

[Limbo Pete]

I dunno, I've seen a lot of stuff about cults that end badly and a lot of the time, when the people are able to get outside the cult and gain some perspective, don't have nice things to say when they look back on the experience.

One of the things a guy said in the doc that stuck with me was essentially this (I'm paraphrasing): We were just exercising our first amendment right to religious freedom. When the very people who are supposed to be protecting that right come and attack you, then who do you call for protection?

That's heavy shit.

He was having sex with children. They were allowing him to have sex with children. Wave bye bye to the first amendment.

 

[Thundarr]

I don't think it's fair to speculate like that. If we're going to judge people, then let's do it on the basis of what they've actually done, not what they might do in the future. There is no evidence that Koresh or the Davidians had any offensive plans of attack. All of their weapons training was to get ready for the day when the government (Babylon) came and attacked them first, and sure enough that day did come.

He thought he was a god, messiah, higher life form or whatever. He demonstrated a level or corrupt morality and violation of any societies norms with his behavior. I don't think him using his subjects with his arsenal to fuck some shit up was past him.

 

[Guestx]

He was having sex with children. They were allowing him to have sex with children. Wave bye bye to the first amendment.

We can argue whether the law was right or wrong, but the thing is, in Texas the age of consent with a parent's permission was 14. This was also true for marriage.

The parents were all there and openly gave their consent (with Waco survivors confirming this), and according to everyone David never took a girl that was younger than 14.

Again, we can argue that's too young or whatever, but the thing is, that was the state law.

 

[Guestx]

He thought he was a god, messiah, higher life form or whatever. He demonstrated a level or corrupt morality and violation of any societies norms with his behavior. I don't think him using his subjects with his arsenal to fuck some shit up was past him.

That's still just speculation. I will agree that he (or they) would be capable of doing such a thing once they've either actually done it or have provided evidence of plans to do such a thing.

It's a dangerous line to walk to be like, "Hey, well you did THIS thing so I bet you'd do THAT thing too!" Let's just wait until someone has actually committed a crime before condemning them for that crime.

 

[Limbo Pete]

We can argue whether the law was right or wrong, but the thing is, in Texas the age of consent with a parent's permission was 14. This was also true for marriage.

The parents were all there and openly gave their consent (with Waco survivors confirming this), and according to everyone David never took a girl that was younger than 14.

Again, we can argue that's too young or whatever, but the thing is, that was the state law.

You realize he had wives younger than 14

 

[Guestx]

You realize he had wives younger than 14

Just from what I can tell, there is no certainty regarding this.

One of the docs I watched said the youngest confirmed girl that David had sexual relations with was 14. However, according to this New York Times article, he took wives as young as 11.

The youngest that Wikipedia mentions is 13, which is an allegation that Child Protective Services investigated, but they failed to turn up any firm evidence.

So do we call it a definite maybe? Was there ever actually hard, verifiable evidence that this is the case or only hearsay?

It would not actually surprise me to learn that it's true that some of the girls were under 14, but do we know it for sure?

 

[Limbo Pete]

Just from what I can tell, there is no certainty regarding this.

One of the docs I watched said the youngest confirmed girl that David had sexual relations with was 14. However, according to this New York Times article, he took wives as young as 11.

The youngest that Wikipedia mentions is 13, which is an allegation that Child Protective Services investigated, but they failed to turn up any firm evidence.

So do we call it a definite maybe? Was there ever actually hard, verifiable evidence that this is the case or only hearsay?

It would not actually surprise me to learn that it's true that some of the girls were under 14, but do we know it for sure?

Well i'm not sure, at this point, what would constitute "sure" for you
I do, however, distinctly recall at least one woman- who was maybe 18 or 19 when she died in the fire- that started having kids with him before she was 14. There's a book out there somewhere I read years ago that covered it. You can try and make the argument it was a one time thing (I believe the girl was 12 when he first started having sex with her, maybe younger and ended up having multiple kids. Been a while) but that's really a very flimsy and also slimy path to take considering he appears to have only increased his frequency of kid wives as the years went by.

 

[Bunk Moreland]

He was crazy. The only messiah there is or will ever be is Big Mac.

 

[Guestx]

Well i'm not sure, at this point, what would constitute "sure" for you
I do, however, distinctly recall at least one woman- who was maybe 18 or 19 when she died in the fire- that started having kids with him before she was 14. There's a book out there somewhere I read years ago that covered it. You can try and make the argument it was a one time thing (I believe the girl was 12 when he first started having sex with her, maybe younger and ended up having multiple kids. Been a while) but that's really a very flimsy and also slimy path to take considering he appears to have only increased his frequency of kid wives as the years went by.

I guess here's what I'm getting at regarding assuredness. . .

There seems to be a lot of bad information regarding this incident: In some cases it's outright disinformation, in others it's honestly-reported-but-incorrect misinformation, and then when you can clear all that way you finally have the truth.

The federal government outright lied to cover their own ass, so makes everything else they've said about Waco suspect. Then you have the media--and that's a broad term covering everything from newspapers and books to radio shows and documentaries--and they often have provided information that contradicts other media sources. And lastly you have the actual people involved, and in many of these cases one person will say something, and then another will come back with, "Yeah, don't believe that, he just has an axe to grind against the group."

Probably the thing I'd be most likely to believe is the testimony of the children, but even then, depending on how young they were you still have to wonder if they were remembering properly or, in the case of the older kids, were they intentionally fabricating information for some reason?

Basically what I'm saying is that, in terms of sifting through everything and arriving at the truth, the whole case is a mess.