Wachowski Siblings Become Wachowski Sisters

[Guestx]

It's hard to explain bro. I see it as (tin foil hat on) part of the agenda to feminize modern american men. First it was the metro sexual stuff. Then we had gay propaganda pushed on us. Now it's transexualism. My bullshit detector is a finely honed instrument at this point, and this whole push for this and everything like it reeks of bullshit and propaganda. They're trying to feminize us bro. And I'll tell you this as well, the recent feminism push is related to that as well, imo. They'll make out in movies/tv/songs/whatever popular media, that women are the boss and men just have to go along with whatever the wife/gf says. You can already see that everywhere. Being a strong male is almost frowned upon at this point.

Why are they pushing the feminization agenda? Imo it's to weaken us. Our society and as a by product, our country as a whole. Call it a conspiracy if you guys want to but that is truly what I see happening. If you look at most modern media or even go walk around a fucking mall, with that perspective, you'll probably notice it too. You'd have to. Modern men being womanized. I just don't like it. Doesn't make me a hater or anything, though.

Just think about this: You know they call the WWII era people the "greatest generation?" Well they called them that for a reason. Back then men were fucking men, and they did what they had to do, like men. Even the women back then had to man up, get jobs at fucking steel factories, and do their part. America wouldn't have gotten through that shit if we had a bunch of pansy ass clowns like they're trying to turn us into now. Imagine what the greatest generation would think of modern young people today if they had a look at 'em. It's embarrassing to think about.

It's an interesting thought. But I think before you run too far with it, you need some hard evidence (internal documents from the powers that be, etc) to support your case.

I believe I see it a different way: America traditionally has not been an exceptionally tolerant culture. The Indians were massacred, blacks were enslaved, gay peopled were shunned and sometimes killed, political dissidents were targeted by the government, hippies were frowned upon by older generations, believers in nature religions were called devil worshippers, etc etc etc. So I think what we're seeing now is a reaction to the past. People are so afraid to be connected to that intolerant past that inclusion is the name of the game, and there are a lot of institutions (like Hollywood, for instance) who have really embraced that way of thinking to decided to push it forward.

The irony is that if we had a little more relaxed 50 years ago then we might, as a whole, actually be a little more conservative today.

 

[Guestx]

I wouldn't say it's fucked up. If it genuinely makes them happier people then I'm all for it.

The essential problem is that the stats around transgender people post surgery are fairly disconcerting. Something like 40% attempt suicide and close to the same amount regret having the surgery itself.

The other thing is why people are so nasty to just accept that it's perfectly normal. I mean, maybe it isn't. Maybe it's a song of a greater problem, and those figures don't exactly exclude that.

Like I said, if they're happier and better off, then I fully support it. But if a skinny girl who weighs 100 pounds says she's fat and starves herself, we instantly recognize that as a deeper issue. But if it's a man saying they're actually a woman, many people are quick to not only applaud them but demonize people that might have deeper questions.

Given the stats around transgender surgery and the depression and suicide attempts that are so prevalent I would think a deeper look into it shouldn't be such a horrible suggestion.

Are those legit stats? I can't say I've heard those before. They sound extreme. Are you sure your source is reputable?

But yes, I do agree that we should look more deeply into it and try to find WHY it is that people are feeling this way. If you were born with a dick, you should feel like a dude. And if you don't, why not?

 

[ripskater]

Are those legit stats? I can't say I've heard those before. They sound extreme. Are you sure your source is reputable?

But yes, I do agree that we should look more deeply into it and try to find WHY it is that people are feeling this way. If you were born with a dick, you should feel like a dude. And if you don't, why not?

Some of it goes back to childhood environment. Was there sexual abuse of the boys from an older male? If so, the chance goes up. For boys, do they have a good healthy relationship with their father. Did they ever bond with dad? Do they feel abandoned by dad? and identify as a male being with him? If not, these boys have increased risk of becoming homosexual and possibly becoming trans.

 

[Bob Gray]

Are those legit stats? I can't say I've heard those before. They sound extreme. Are you sure your source is reputable?

But yes, I do agree that we should look more deeply into it and try to find WHY it is that people are feeling this way. If you were born with a dick, you should feel like a dude. And if you don't, why not?

Yes, but I was wrong in the reret of surgery. It's 20%, which is still incredibly high.

http://www.theguardian.com/society/2004/jul/30/health.mentalhealth

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/...s-face-high-rates--suicide-attempts/31626633/


Those are just the first off google searches. If you spend some time digging around the stats are pretty alarming.

 

[Mike]

Yes, but I was wrong in the reret of surgery. It's 20%, which is still incredibly high.

http://www.theguardian.com/society/2004/jul/30/health.mentalhealth

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/...s-face-high-rates--suicide-attempts/31626633/


Those are just the first off google searches. If you spend some time digging around the stats are pretty alarming.

The limited amount of data we have for surgery seems to show pretty negative results

My theory is the surgery briefly boosts happiness, but long term it only makes things worse once they realize there's really no way to change genders, and once you have surgery there's no going back.


Ideally I think altering hormones and brain activity to match their actual gender would be better, but the technology just isn't there yet.

 

[Prefect]

Well "freaks" is a poor choice of words. But something about this just stands out badly like a splinter in my mind (pun intended). For real, like I can imagine people 100 years from now looking back to now, and saying this kind of shit is where American society took a major fucking wrong turn.

Just my opinion.

That happened awhile ago. By almost all standards, Germany, Sweden, Norway, and others are better places to live. And they are incredibly liberal and have more socialized programs. It is impossible to say all socialized programs are bad in all cases if you have visited these countries. The U.S. Is stuck on dumb things like boarder controll ,most illegals just fly in and never leave, gay marriage, legalized weed, transgender bathrooms. and planned parenthood to even recognize the issues that affect them daily.

 

[Plissken]

Mental illness runs in the family.

 

[Bob Gray]

The limited amount of data we have for surgery seems to show pretty negative results

My theory is the surgery briefly boosts happiness, but long term it only makes things worse once they realize there's really no way to change genders, and once you have surgery there's no going back.


Ideally I think altering hormones and brain activity to match their actual gender would be better, but the technology just isn't there yet.

Im not trying to be dismissive of your idea or antagonistic, but I could just say my theory is that it's because the gender issue is a symptom of a greater problem and regardless of what happens the depression will remain. Neither one of us is really qualified to give a theory, and we don't really have a real piece of evidence between the two of us supporting one position or the other.

Im not saying I actually believe the theory above, my position remains in the "I have no clue, but these stats are troublesome" camp.

Like with my previous example above, why is it if a girl that weighs 100 pounds insists shes fat then we know it's a symptom of a greater problem, but if someone says "I'm a woman trapped in mans body" we don't have the same reaction. Why is that?

It should be noted that a mental illness is not a sign of anything other than a mental illness. It doesn't necessarily make anyone dangerous or stupid. Lots of people have mental illnesses and have normal, productive lives.

 

[Skip Reming]

The limited amount of data we have for surgery seems to show pretty negative results

My theory is the surgery briefly boosts happiness, but long term it only makes things worse once they realize there's really no way to change genders, and once you have surgery there's no going back.


Ideally I think altering hormones and brain activity to match their actual gender would be better, but the technology just isn't there yet.

The thing is, is that they get surgery thinking it will make them a woman but it does not. They are still the same. No man knows what it is truly like to be a woman. It just isn't the case. They may have their preconceived notion of what it is, but it is not the reality.

These people are living in a fantasy world. They are not transitioning from male to female as THIS IS LITERALLY AND SCIENTIFICALLY IMPOSSIBLE.

You and I are probably both white guys. If we got our skin pigment augmented would we be black like a black person who was born that way? This is just cultural and we would laugh at this. Why would a man know anything about being a woman?

mangling your dick and taking estrogen does not make you a woman and it is an insult to women everywhere to say as much

 

[Mike]

Im not trying to be dismissive of your idea or antagonistic, but I could just say my theory is that it's because the gender issue is a symptom of a greater problem and regardless of what happens the depression will remain. Neither one of us is really qualified to give a theory, and we don't really have a real piece of evidence between the two of us supporting one position or the other.

Im not saying I actually believe the theory above, my position remains in the "I have no clue, but these stats are troublesome" camp.

Like with my previous example above, why is it if a girl that weighs 100 pounds insists shes fat then we know it's a symptom of a greater problem, but if someone says "I'm a woman trapped in mans body" we don't have the same reaction. Why is that?

It should be noted that a mental illness is not a sign of anything other than a mental illness. It doesn't necessarily make anyone dangerous or stupid. Lots of people have mental illnesses and have normal, productive lives.

Well that theory would be really close to my theory honestly. I also don't claim to be an expert on this, hell even the experts are still figuring it out.


All I've really said is that we don't have a way to help them, they have gender dysphoria but there's no way to change genders, so yeah. I think they put all their hopes into reassignment surgery, but surgery isn't magic. There's no way to turn a man into a woman or vice versa with science.


The anorexia comparison isn't a good one imo because in that scenario they are suffering from a drastically different body image than what they actually look like, unable to see they're starving themselves to death.


In contrast transgenders are well aware that they look like the gender they were born into physically, but say they feel like the opposite gender. Post mortem brain scans have shown a number of differences in the configuration of their brain, and then hormonal differences have been noticed in living transgender as well. So in many cases they are saying they feel like the opposite gender, and it turns out they have hormone levels or brin function of the other gender they identify as. That points to there being a reason for the feelings they have.


It's really splitting hairs on calling it a mental or biological disorder though tbh, since damn near all mental illness has a biological component as well. However trans people and supporters of the trans community have noted there's a difference between having hormone levels the other gender should have, and having something that is just abnormal in your genetics/psychological makeup, regardless of gender.


Basically saying you feel like a woman or man largely as a result of having hormone levels associated with those genders is not at all the same as being a schizophrenic, bi-polar, anorexic etc. I don't think the distinction is necessarily that meaningful, but the way mentally ill are judged in this country I completely understand not wanting to be compared to them.


The enormous and ridiculous stigma againast the mentally ill in America is another issue entirely though.

 

[Mike]

The thing is, is that they get surgery thinking it will make them a woman but it does not. They are still the same. No man knows what it is truly like to be a woman. It just isn't the case. They may have their preconceived notion of what it is, but it is not the reality.

These people are living in a fantasy world. They are not transitioning from male to female as THIS IS LITERALLY AND SCIENTIFICALLY IMPOSSIBLE.

You and I are probably both white guys. If we got our skin pigment augmented would we be black like a black person who was born that way? This is just cultural and we would laugh at this. Why would a man know anything about being a woman?

mangling your dick and taking estrogen does not make you a woman and it is an insult to women everywhere to say as much

See that's what I'm saying though. I think somehow in these discussions people get the idea I'm arguing for surgery, although I am not. They get the idea surgery is going to be this missing link that'll make it all better. Then they get the surgery, and it slowly dawns on them it isn't a solution, there's no way to be accepted as a woman when your born a man or vice versa.

That sets them up for even worse depression anxiety, and eventual suicide. There isn't a lot of data available yet because surgery is still a fairly new phenomenon, but what data we do have suggests it does not work and is harmful.


I think the best option is to normalize their hormone levels and brain activity to be more in line with the gender of their birth. We simply don't have the technology for that though. The only thing I object to is people acting like gender and hormone levels are this fixed linear concept. They are not, there have always been a small percentage of hermaphrodites, transgenders, etc. Sometimes the doctors can't even tell what the primary genitalia is and just have to guess one and remove the other. There's no way they can be right 100% of the time with something like that.




Basically nature is not a perfect system, sometimes there are fuckups. Genetically it's not that different from birth defects, diseases caused by recessive gene sequences, etc. People are able to grasp that but then act like transgenders are something the media made up.