Media Victor Conte exposes USADA

kflo said:
what's most relevant is the comments from bowers, eichner and fedoruk. not dana and not novitzky. and didn't JRE just edit out the cheque drops theory? and anyway, notitzky's points aren't too relevant. it didn't influence usada or smrtl.
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That's true, Dana and Jeff are just talking heads, but those are the scientists you're referencing right? Wasn't there a conflict of interest there because they're former USADA employee's?
 
drbolony said:
That's true, Dana and Jeff are just talking heads, but those are the scientists you're referencing right? Wasn't there a conflict of interest there because they're former USADA employee's?
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how is there a conflict of interest for a head of a wada lab? or even a usada director of science?
 
kflo said:
how is there a conflict of interest for a head of a wada lab? or even a usada director of science?
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It was an honest question man, you seem way more knowledgeable about the subject than I am. I didn't know their official positions, just read they're former USADA employee's on here.

Based on my ignorant pov, I'd have to say, greased pockets?
 
drbolony said:
It was an honest question man, you seem way more knowledgeable about the subject than I am.

Based on my ignorant pov, I'd have to say, greased pockets?
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i think alot of the theories and beliefs of people are built off their premise that jones is the biggest cheater in the sport and therefore prefer to just discredit anything that doesn't strongly support that view. so they're all paid off. it's a simple copout. (not accusing you)
 
kflo said:
i think alot of the theories and beliefs of people are built off their premise that jones is the biggest cheater in the sport and therefore prefer to just discredit anything that doesn't strongly support that view. so they're all paid off. it's a simple copout. (not accusing you)
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I mean I can't stand the guy, but I'm not going to purposely misrepresent things I read or see about him on here. That just hurts my credibility. I believe the same, but I also believe Jon left a lot of smoke in the kitchen to make people extra suspicious. To make my stance clear, I wouldn't even care about anti doping if the UFC hadn't adopted it, and used less popular fighters as scapegoats to legitimize their bullshit PED program. If this whole conspiracy turns out to be true, then the UFC has been playing with a lot of people's lives.

One of them being my boy Lyoto Machida, who got me into the sport. Real salty about that one.
 
drbolony said:
I mean I can't stand the guy, but I'm not going to purposely misrepresent things I read or see about him on here. That just hurts my credibility. I believe the same, but I also believe Jon left a lot of smoke in the kitchen to make people extra suspicious. To make my stance clear, I wouldn't even care about anti doping if the UFC hadn't adopted it, and used less popular fighters as scapegoats to legitimize their bullshit PED program. If this whole conspiracy turns out to be true, then the UFC has been playing with a lot of people's lives.

One of them being my boy Lyoto Machida, who got me into the sport. Real salty about that one.
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but again, you really need it to be a conspiracy with alot of active participants. which should give you some pause as to the credibility of the conspiracy.

and again, their ped program has netted some of the biggest stars in the sport.
 
kflo said:
but again, you really need it to be a conspiracy with alot of active participants. which should give you some pause as to the credibility of the conspiracy.

and again, their ped program has netted some of the biggest stars in the sport.
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Well I mean it's no secret what side of the fence I'm on, guess there's nothing left to do than watch things unfold right?

You seem pretty knowledgeable, you know of any sites that are like PED wiki? Wouldn't mind reading up so I don't sound like a tard the next time I make a PED thread.
 
drbolony said:
Well I mean it's no secret what side of the fence I'm on, guess there's nothing left to do than watch things unfold right?

You seem pretty knowledgeable, you know of any sites that are like PED wiki? Wouldn't mind reading up so I don't sound like a tard the next time I make a PED thread.
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i'm afraid you're probably going to have to waste alot of time looking at various sources. just follow the paper trail for all things jones and you'll find alot of information. some of it likely even true.
 
ortizgnp said:
I remember before the Jones/USADA debacle how nobody trusted a word that came out of Conte's mouth.

I wonder what changed..

<21>
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About anything other than drugs sure. The man knows steroids
 
drbolony said:
You realize the first three minutes aren't the entire video right? He talks about steroids in the last minute.

Would it really be a big deal if they test for everything? Especially now that the UFC isn't going to be making all USADA flags public now? The company isn't going to be suspending fighters for out of comp stimulant or weed use.

The real question would be what's the point of testing for everything at all times. I don't really have an answer to that, but my hypothesis would be to catch masking agents maybe?
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yes, there are a whole host of reasons why you would not test for all things at all times.

now im at the computer can explain properly.

Per the WADA prohibited list these are the things that are prohibited at all times

s0 - non approved substances - this basically includes anything not approved for human consumption, so vetenary medication, or research chemicals still in clinical trials
s1 - Anabolic Agents - steroids, and other testosterone derivitives

s2 - Peptide Hormones, Growth Factors - so HGH and GHRP etc

s3 - Beta 2 agonists - This includes a lot of stuff like Higenamine, Salbutamol, Vilanterol etc (A lot of these have thresholds rather than being straight out prohibited)

4 - Hormone and metabolic modulators - Stuff like Letrozole, Clomiphine, Tamoxifen etc

s5 - Diuretics and masking agents - any masking agents basically

So both USADA, UKAD, AFLD, ABCDE, Every other national anti agency in the world and VADA, test for these both in and out of competition.




Then there are the next set of substances, in all these cases, USADA, other Anti doping agencies like UKAD, ASADA only check for these In competition

s6 - stimulants - covers recreational stuff like cocaine, amfetamine, but also a bunch of stuff like modafinil that is used in supplements

s7 - Narcotics - Oxy, Morphine etc

s8 - Cannabinoids - cannabis, etc

s9 - glococorticoids - cortisone, prednisolone

Vada for reasons known only to themselves test for all of these out of competition as well. This is Conte's point, that USADA only test for "some things" and vada test "for everything"



But why the fuck should they be testing for those things out of competition?

Why should stimulants be prohibited out of competition? they have incredibly short effective half lifes, and excretion times, so there is absolutely not impact on in competition performance. And would mean that for athletes in the 24/7/365 testing pool they wouldnt be able to take things like sudafed if they had a cold, they wouldnt be able to use some nasal sprays if they had a blocked nose, it would be absolutely preposterous.

Cannabinoids, imagine if USADA turned round and said "hey , guess what, we are now banning cannabis not only in competition but out of competition as well", there would be fucking uproar.

Narcotics - again, using a narcotic out of competition has zero impact on in competition performance.

Glucocorticoids - so widely used for injury prevention, banning them out of competition would be a nightmare, it would also to a degree (with some exceptions) be pointless. (There is some argument for banning this particular category at all times in some sports where there are patterns of abuse - cycling for instance)






Its just amazing, if USADA said "hey guess what, we are banning stimulants, cannabis, corticosteroids at all times" there would be fucking uproar. from athletes, from fans, from media, and even from people in the anti doping community. And rightly so.

But because Vada do it, people are like "look how much better Vada are" and make threads with titles like "Victor Conte exposes usada"

Exposes what? Exposes them not being fucking retarded and testing for stimulants and cannabis out of competition?
 
drbolony said:
I mean I can't stand the guy, but I'm not going to purposely misrepresent things I read or see about him on here. That just hurts my credibility. I believe the same, but I also believe Jon left a lot of smoke in the kitchen to make people extra suspicious. To make my stance clear, I wouldn't even care about anti doping if the UFC hadn't adopted it, and used less popular fighters as scapegoats to legitimize their bullshit PED program. If this whole conspiracy turns out to be true, then the UFC has been playing with a lot of people's lives.

One of them being my boy Lyoto Machida, who got me into the sport. Real salty about that one.
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So you support a program where they test for fucking stimulants and cannabis out of competition and even more people get busted for nothing?

genius


actually thats a good question.

Are you in favor of them banning stimulants, narcotics and cannabinoids at all times, 365 days a year?


(Because thats what you are advocating - and that is what Victor is saying)
 
lets not also forget he also said what usada said about the jones issues could happen as well.
 
-Dim- said:
yes, there are a whole host of reasons why you would not test for all things at all times.

now im at the computer can explain properly.

Per the WADA prohibited list these are the things that are prohibited at all times

s0 - non approved substances - this basically includes anything not approved for human consumption, so vetenary medication, or research chemicals still in clinical trials
s1 - Anabolic Agents - steroids, and other testosterone derivitives

s2 - Peptide Hormones, Growth Factors - so HGH and GHRP etc

s3 - Beta 2 agonists - This includes a lot of stuff like Higenamine, Salbutamol, Vilanterol etc (A lot of these have thresholds rather than being straight out prohibited)

4 - Hormone and metabolic modulators - Stuff like Letrozole, Clomiphine, Tamoxifen etc

s5 - Diuretics and masking agents - any masking agents basically

So both USADA, UKAD, AFLD, ABCDE, Every other national anti agency in the world and VADA, test for these both in and out of competition.




Then there are the next set of substances, in all these cases, USADA, other Anti doping agencies like UKAD, ASADA only check for these In competition

s6 - stimulants - covers recreational stuff like cocaine, amfetamine, but also a bunch of stuff like modafinil that is used in supplements

s7 - Narcotics - Oxy, Morphine etc

s8 - Cannabinoids - cannabis, etc

s9 - glococorticoids - cortisone, prednisolone

Vada for reasons known only to themselves test for all of these out of competition as well. This is Conte's point, that USADA only test for "some things" and vada test "for everything"



But why the fuck should they be testing for those things out of competition?

Why should stimulants be prohibited out of competition? they have incredibly short effective half lifes, and excretion times, so there is absolutely not impact on in competition performance. And would mean that for athletes in the 24/7/365 testing pool they wouldnt be able to take things like sudafed if they had a cold, they wouldnt be able to use some nasal sprays if they had a blocked nose, it would be absolutely preposterous.

Cannabinoids, imagine if USADA turned round and said "hey , guess what, we are now banning cannabis not only in competition but out of competition as well", there would be fucking uproar.

Narcotics - again, using a narcotic out of competition has zero impact on in competition performance.

Glucocorticoids - so widely used for injury prevention, banning them out of competition would be a nightmare, it would also to a degree (with some exceptions) be pointless. (There is some argument for banning this particular category at all times in some sports where there are patterns of abuse - cycling for instance)






Its just amazing, if USADA said "hey guess what, we are banning stimulants, cannabis, corticosteroids at all times" there would be fucking uproar. from athletes, from fans, from media, and even from people in the anti doping community. And rightly so.

But because Vada do it, people are like "look how much better Vada are" and make threads with titles like "Victor Conte exposes usada"

Exposes what? Exposes them not being fucking retarded and testing for stimulants and cannabis out of competition?
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-Dim- said:
So you support a program where they test for fucking stimulants and cannabis out of competition and even more people get busted for nothing?

genius


actually thats a good question.

Are you in favor of them banning stimulants, narcotics and cannabinoids at all times, 365 days a year?


(Because thats what you are advocating - and that is what Victor is saying)
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I appreciate all the effort, but we already covered idgaf about stimulants and cannabinoids. You where right I misunderstood him there. Conte still goes on to talk about steroid use in the last two minutes of the video in my OP though. That was the part that really caught my attention cause Victor is talking about why athletes are using older doping methods.
 
drbolony said:
I appreciate all the effort, but we already covered idgaf about stimulants and cannabinoids. You where right I misunderstood him there. Conte still goes on to talk about steroid use in the last two minutes of the video in my OP though. That was the part that really caught my attention cause Victor is talking about why athletes are using older doping methods.
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As dim mentioned, conte isn’t exactly relevant in the ped scene these days. He doesn’t mind attention though.
 
kflo said:
As dim mentioned, conte isn’t exactly relevant in the ped scene these days. He doesn’t mind attention though.
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Guess we'll see. At this point I have more faith in him than anything coming out of Novitsky and the UFC.
 
ortizgnp said:
I remember before the Jones/USADA debacle how nobody trusted a word that came out of Conte's mouth.

I wonder what changed..

<21>
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Thats not true at all. Conte has commented on other ufc drug related issues and people have trusted his expertise.
 
ortizgnp said:
OK, sorry. I lied.

Apparently.
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Nah. I wouldnt say you lied. But i remember he has commented on T/E ratios in the past and whether or not he believes there is something suspicious going on or not. I believe it was for wiedman, jone and cormier. But it was a while back. Sorry to give you the impression that I thought you were being deceitful.
 
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