USAF wants on-time F-X, not more F-22s (but F-X might be an F22!?)

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The US Air Force has no interest in restarting production of the Lockheed Martin F-22, partly because it's too expensive and because it wants to move quickly on a next-generation fighter.

The service’s deputy chief of staff for strategic plans and requirements said as much during a congressional hearing on 8 March, suggesting that fighter jet manufacturers like Boeing, Northrop Grumman or Lockheed Martin may decide to offer modifications to existing technologies and platforms in the next F-X competition.

“Because we want to do it faster and don’t want to do another 20-year development programme for a whole host of reasons, we’ll try and go with technology that are at a high readiness level now with manufacturing capabilities that are at a high readiness level now,” Lt Gen James Holmes tells a Senate Armed Services subcommittee panel in response to questions about restarting F-22 production.

“I think it’s completely possible as we get the requirements that there may be competitors that bid on modification of an existing technology or platform like the F-22 and the F-35.”

Industry sources tell Flightglobal that there has been a lot of interest within the Pentagon recently about the restarting F-22 assembly. However, air force leaders have repeatedly denied seeking rough-order-of-magnitude cost estimates for procuring more F-22s and instead point to future fighter concepts as the best way forward.

The 187th and last twin-engine Raptor rolled off the assembly line in Marietta, Georgia in December 2011, but the manufacturing equipment was stored for possible use later. A RAND study in 2010 placed the cost of resuming F-22 production at $17 billion in 2008 dollars for 75 more aircraft, or $267 million per jet.

“There were some initial rough order of magnitude estimates of what it would cost,” USAF military deputy for acquisition Lt Gen Arnold Bunch tells the subcommittee. “[But] we have not estimated what it would be to re-open the line and populate it with more modern technology. We’ve not done that at this time.”

Holmes says pressing forward with the air force’s Next-Generation Air Dominance programme is the better way to make up for lower-than-planned fifth-generation fighter capacity, but cannot be a technologically exotic fighter jet that takes two or three decades to develop.

“They cost too much, they take too long, they make you drive for technology that’s so far into the future that it’s really hard to achieve and by the time you spend 30 years achieving it, it may not be exactly what you want,” he explains after the hearing. “We’re trying to move to a world where we go forward with new airplanes that take advantage of technology that’s ready to manufacture and we have the manufacturing skills to do it, and what could we produce in five years or 10 years instead of 30 years?

“It’s purely speculation on my part, but if I was going to ask a company to bid on what they could build for me in five years or 10 years, I’d expect that some of them would take advantage of work they’ve already done and base it on something they already have.”

Similar thinking has led Lockheed to propose an upgraded version of the KAI T-50 for the air force's T-X trainer programme over a clean sheet design proposed by Skunk Works. Boeing and Northrop, though, do not have any in-service fifth-generation fighters upon which to base F-X proposals.

The US Navy is already moving forward with an analysis of alternatives (AOA) for its F/A-XX strike fighter platform that will eventually succeed the Boeing F/A-18 Super Hornet. The air force will begin that acquisition process next year, says Holmes.

The Air Force Research Laboratory is already working with industry on new aircraft and engine designs. Boeing, Northrop and Lockheed have already started releasing artist’s impressions of conceptual “sixth-generation” fighter jets, but none are based on previous aircraft.

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/a...tter|Flightglobal|sf22303126&CMPID=sf22303126

Makes sense for the USAF to set a less ambitious target and field it sooner given their relative shortfall in air superiority fighters after the cuts to the F22 program. Time shall tell if they can actually make it affordable this time around...
 
Cliffs ? just wtf are the making looking to make.

Why not just build a legit 5.5 gen fighter quick, 6th is 3 decades away realistically. And make it available for purchase, euros are not making anything they would likely buy it.
 
^ That is essentially what they are looking at doing. One of the main challenges I can see is that there aren't significant economies of scale to be had in a production run this size, and teaming with the USN doesn't solve that problem either.
 
^ That is essentially what they are looking at doing. One of the main challenges I can see is that there aren't significant economies of scale to be had in a production run this size, and teaming with the USN doesn't solve that problem either.

Export version solves that, many want something better then the joke f35. You ausies wanted the F22 but they wouldn't sale you some.
 
Export version solves that, many want something better then the joke f35. You ausies wanted the F22 but they wouldn't sale you some.

No, we didn't. The F22 would not fit into our force structure for much the same reason the F15 didn't in the 80's. The Raptor was never seriously considered in the AIR6000 project that saw us select the F35.

Carlo Kopp and Peter Goon (/Airpower Australia) campaigned for us to have Raptors despite having no to access to the relevant data. Suffice it to say they are not regarded highly among the RAAF, nor are their views.

I have addressed the myths relevant to the F35 (eg. that it is "junk") thoroughly in other threads, but won't hijack this thread with it. That said the F35 at least gains economies of scale from a 3000 airframe run. Even exporting F-X won't get it anywhere near that number. Tricky challenge.
 
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Nothing is on time and on budget these days. I suspect whoever wins the contract will milk the cow by spreading the program as far and wide as possible. When you got massive "jobs" on the line in at least 20 states, there is no chance of the white elephant getting killed. Lockheed has already shown the way to do it with F-35.
 
^ Actually I think that's what the article says they're trying to avoid. Smaller jump in technological sophistication to mitigate program risk and speed up delivery. I'd add that calling either the F35 or F-X a white elephant is pretty cynical. They're fairly central to keeping up with the competition.
 
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No, we didn't. The F22 would not fit into our force structure for much the same reason the F15 didn't in the 80's. The Raptor was never seriously considered in the AIR6000 project that saw us select the F35.

Carlo Kopp and Peter Goon (/Airpower Australia) campaigned for us to have Raptors despite having no to access to the relevant data. Suffice it to say they are not regarded highly among the RAAF, nor are their views.

I have addressed the myths relevant to the F35 (eg. that it is "junk") thoroughly in other threads, but won't hijack this thread with it. That said the F35 at least gains economies of scale from a 3000 airframe run. Even exporting F-X won't get it anywhere near that number. Tricky challenge.

lol come the fuck on you are defending the F35 with economic of scale as the pos project that is costing a trillion dollars way over budget way late, that is laughable.
 
lol come the fuck on you are defending the F35 with economic of scale as the pos project that is costing a trillion dollars way over budget way late, that is laughable.

No I was correcting your mistake, but that's just reality dude. Yes it is over budget, yes it is late and yes there is plenty of fodder with which to criticise the program's management historically. I am actually not attempting to be some champion defender of the F35. What I AM saying though, is that there are A LOT of myths out there about it that warrant clarification.

As I have said, the 1 trilllion figure represents the total projected cost of the ENTIRE program (including foreign F35s) until the very last one retires in the 2050s... of course its a massive figure! In fact it would likely be several times MORE expensive to keep the current fleet going in the same timeframe...

Furthermore yes, the F35 benefits from economies of scale like few other jets can. That is because ~3000 are on track to be built, meaning that once full rate production kicks off they wil be going for ~85m each. Compare that to the cost of the competition (Eurofighter, Rafale, Silent Eagle etc) and see what you find...
 
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No I was correcting your mistake, but that's just reality dude. Yes it is over budget, yes it is late and yes there is plenty of fodder with which to criticise the program's management historically.

As I have said though, the 1 trilllion figure represents the total projected cost of the ENTIRE program (including foreign F35s) until the very last one retires in the 2050s... of course its a massive figure! In fact it would likely be several times MORE expensive to keep the current fleet going in the same timeframe...

Furthermore yes, the F35 benefits from economies of scale like few other jets can. That is because ~3000 are on track to be built, meaning that once production kicks off they wil be going for ~85m each. Compare that to the cost of the competition (Eurofighter, Rafale, Silent Eagle etc) and see what you find...

Id bet my left nut no way in hell will it ever near 3000 in production, and that trillion by 2050 will be easily over 2 trillion if typical under project then reality kicks in. You have a overly positive outlook for its future, when has any fighter program ever deserved that ?

F35 at 85million lmao you musty be dreaming. Good luck with that fairy tales.
 
@Abezal what sources are you basing that on though? I'm not being overly optimistic, I'm just clarifying some of the publicly available information on the jet. The reality is that new generation fighter jets are generally ALWAYS late and overbudget, but that doesn't make them a "POS" (look at the F-22). Don't take my word for it though, see for yourself:



There has been A LOT of shoddy journalism in relation to the F35 to date that has often peddled outright lies about it. I suspect this is what leads a lot of people (perhaps yourself included) to think it is a piece of junk. If you're going to criticise the jet by all means go ahead, but at least make sure you're getting the facts right first.
 
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