UFC's greatest fighter?

[HARDCORE CHINO]

pure UFC fights has to be Anderson Silva no questions about it.

 

[Breaking]

I don't think anyone can possibly suggest it's between Werdum or MM, that's an easy choice. I'm just saying Werdum's inclusion in this list isn't on the same level as McGregor being included although you have a point about their relationship to their titles. Only difference is that Werdum just got KO'ed stiff and Conor is still the Champion, "failed to defend it" doesn't apply in his case.

It's a difference, of course, but it's not an enormous difference. Conor is probably never going back to FW, so he's not going to rack up that all important title defense stat.

And they were both finished in their first fights after their title unifications. That's about as similar a career trajectory you'll ever see in this sport.

 

[Breaking]

If you so choose. You can replace it with GSP not eye gouging, kneecapping, throwing illegal elbows etc...

The eye gouging critique IS pretty serious. I'm actually surprised that the UFC or the athletic commission hasn't tried to do something about it.

Kneecapping? You mean those perfectly legal kicks? What's the knock there?

He was punished for the elbows. But everything about that fight was bullshit. That's a Mazzagatti failure.

 

[Koro_11]

Jose Aldo?

Yes I agree, Aldo is up there too if you count his WEC fights, and Mighty Mouse is getting there. But anyone other than those 5 have no business being mentioned in this conversation.

 

[MuyThaiElbows]

Right now it's debatable against Jones, Silva, GSP, and Aldo in all honesty.

When it's all said and done Jon Jones will be the best ever.

 

[leatherneck]

I'm voting Cyborg just to piss myself off.

thats the spirit-

i think we have made an important breakthrough.

 

[leatherneck]

P4P is pure fantasy because of the square-cube law (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Square-cube_law#Biomechanics) that basically states if you were to isometrically scale MM to the size of Werdum, the bigger MM would retain significantly less speed/strength/durability than predicted due to the limit of human biomechanics. In other words, MM can do the stuff he does and move the way he does at the speed he can because he's small, a lot of it has nothing to do with skill or athleticism, they're just results of the biomechanics of scale. You can't really compare him with Werdum.

just because P4P confuses a lot of you doesnt mean the concept is difficult or worthless.

the square-cube law is irrelevant here.

as Ravden already pointed out, there are plenty of fighters the size of MM without his attributes, and there are thousands of athletes that are 6'+ with top-shelf speed and agility.

 

[LouisBolanos]

just because P4P confuses a lot of you doesnt mean the concept is difficult or worthless.

the square-cube law is irrelevant here.

as Ravden already pointed out, there are plenty of fighters the size of MM without his attributes, and there are thousands of athletes that are 6'+ with top-shelf speed and agility.

P4P isn't "worthless" because it's confusing. Rocket science is confusing and it's definitely not worthless. It's "worthless" in the sense that it's pure fantasy. It's 2016, it's physically impossible to isometrically scale people in real life, last time I checked.

The square cube law is basic physics, it's always relevant where there's constant gravity, last time I checked, fights don't take place in outer space.

And no, there aren't thousands of 6+ athletes with MM speed and agility. People who are 6+ do not move like MM does, doesn't matter if they're C level UFC guy or A level NFL baller. Simple demonstration: MM was a mediocre track athlete back in high school, his 100m time was around 11.2 seconds IIRC - it's a time even girls would laugh at, BUT, if you take into account MM's height, and scale this time to Usain Bolt's height, you get:

11.2 seconds / (195cm/160cm) = 9.18 seconds.

9.18 seconds. In other words, MM's pathetic 100m speed, P4P, when scaled to Usain Bolt's height, would make him by far the fastest 100m sprinter in the world and beyond some of the currently estimated theoretical limit for humans. You got thousands of 6+ athletes with that kind of speed? No you don't, you got none, because P4P is pure fantasy, and you get nonsense like this when you "scale" athletes to the same size.

 

[Frank Kain]

P4P isn't "worthless" because it's confusing. Rocket science is confusing and it's definitely not worthless. It's "worthless" in the sense that it's pure fantasy. It's 2016, it's physically impossible to isometrically scale people in real life, last time I checked.

The square cube law is basic physics, it's always relevant where there's constant gravity, last time I checked, fights don't take place in outer space.

And no, there aren't thousands of 6+ athletes with MM speed and agility. People who are 6+ do not move like MM does, doesn't matter if they're C level UFC guy or A level NFL baller. Simple demonstration: MM was a mediocre track athlete back in high school, his 100m time was around 11.2 seconds IIRC - it's a time even girls would laugh at, BUT, if you take into account MM's height, and scale this time to Usain Bolt's height, you get:

11.2 seconds / (195cm/160cm) = 9.18 seconds.

9.18 seconds. In other words, MM's pathetic 100m speed, P4P, when scaled to Usain Bolt's height, would make him by far the fastest 100m sprinter in the world and beyond some of the currently estimated theoretical limit for humans. You got thousands of 6+ athletes with that kind of speed? No you don't, you got none, because P4P is pure fantasy, and you get nonsense like this when you "scale" athletes to the same size.

This is well thought out, but the complication occurs when we are comparing fighter resumes. Basically, I agree with you, but the argument gets murky when comparing GSP and Jones for example. It gets down to whose career was more impressive.

 

[jsbx45]

GSP or Silva.

 

[muaythaibeast]

I don't think anyone can possibly suggest it's between Werdum or MM, that's an easy choice. I'm just saying Werdum's inclusion in this list isn't on the same level as McGregor being included although you have a point about their relationship to their titles. Only difference is that Werdum just got KO'ed stiff and Conor is still the Champion, "failed to defend it" doesn't apply in his case.

Werdum just lost in his first title defense, Conor got mauled by a 5-10 guy in a different weight class after refusing to defend his belt. Can't really put Conor ahead of Werdum in this one

 

[muaythaibeast]

Yes I agree, Aldo is up there too if you count his WEC fights, and Mighty Mouse is getting there. But anyone other than those 5 have no business being mentioned in this conversation.

Yeah I've got GSP by a margin, but those are the only names worth a mention (potentially Dom Cruz too). You can't really make a case for Hughes ahead of GSP or Chuck ahead of Jones

 

[Breaking]

P4P isn't "worthless" because it's confusing. Rocket science is confusing and it's definitely not worthless. It's "worthless" in the sense that it's pure fantasy. It's 2016, it's physically impossible to isometrically scale people in real life, last time I checked.

The square cube law is basic physics, it's always relevant where there's constant gravity, last time I checked, fights don't take place in outer space.

And no, there aren't thousands of 6+ athletes with MM speed and agility. People who are 6+ do not move like MM does, doesn't matter if they're C level UFC guy or A level NFL baller. Simple demonstration: MM was a mediocre track athlete back in high school, his 100m time was around 11.2 seconds IIRC - it's a time even girls would laugh at, BUT, if you take into account MM's height, and scale this time to Usain Bolt's height, you get:

11.2 seconds / (195cm/160cm) = 9.18 seconds.

9.18 seconds. In other words, MM's pathetic 100m speed, P4P, when scaled to Usain Bolt's height, would make him by far the fastest 100m sprinter in the world and beyond some of the currently estimated theoretical limit for humans. You got thousands of 6+ athletes with that kind of speed? No you don't, you got none, because P4P is pure fantasy, and you get nonsense like this when you "scale" athletes to the same size.

How many people who talk about p4p comparisons do it in the way you are arguing against?

It seems to me that you have a solid argument against an imaginary opponent. It's not exactly straw-manning, but it amounts to the same.

 

[zephid]

Both McGregor and Werdum would beat Mighty Mouse silly. Werdum would have a 60 fight finish streak if he were facing 125 lb little people like MM was. Strength of competition matters and Werdum faced much tougher guys than Mighty Mouse ever did.

He would also have to weigh 125 lbs in that case.

 

[Fight Professor]

It has to be GSP. Silva's failed test has a direct effect on his "greatness".

MM only gained popularity in the last fight when he did not fight safe. A lot of times it seems like his fights decreased PPV buys.

Conor is getting bigger than the UFC with a possible Mayweather fights. But so far he has an epic FW run but Aldo has a bigger legacy. Higher weight class wins and superfights would put him there but it is too early.

 

[leatherneck]

It's 2016, it's physically impossible to isometrically scale people in real life, last time I checked.

\BUT, if you take into account MM's height, and scale this time to Usain Bolt's height, you get:

11.2 seconds / (195cm/160cm) = 9.18 seconds.

1. you dont know what P4P means. it suggests that we imagine a person at a different size, WITH NORMAL HUMAN LIMITATIONS, NOT THAT THE PHYSICS OF HUMAN BIOMECHANICS IS ALTERED.

P4P has been around 100 years, and morons like you obfuscate things by acting like it cant be suggested.

first you misquoted me, and then went and stated it was impossible to isometrically scale, then you did your typical straw man/hyperbole, stretching P4P into something everyone in the world knows it is not. everyone except you.

2. at least your managed to not mention M1 tanks and Saber-tooth Tigers.

 

[conorbless1]

Jose Aldo is the best and most complete fighter the UFC has ever seen (and he has better wins than GSP imo). I'm very curious to see how he'll fare against Frankie and whether he has declined or not.

 

[LouisBolanos]

1. you dont know what P4P means. it suggests that we imagine a person at a different size, WITH NORMAL HUMAN LIMITATIONS, NOT THAT THE PHYSICS OF HUMAN BIOMECHANICS IS ALTERED.

Well at least you're right about one thing: it is your imagination.

In reality MM is 5'3", he will stay 5'3", and would get wrecked by mediocre UFC middle weights.

P4P has been around 100 years, and morons like you obfuscate things by acting like it cant be suggested.

And morons have believed in flat earth for thousands of years. Your point?

then you did your typical straw man/hyperbole, stretching P4P into something everyone in the world knows it is not. everyone except you.

Oh really? Have you spoken to everyone in the world? Do you know for a fact that everyone in the world even knows what P4P is, or was it typical hyperbole?

at least your managed to not mention M1 tanks and Saber-tooth Tigers.

P4P the cockroach in my kitchen would punch through an M-1 tank and wreck 100 MM by himself. Problem?

 

[basementdweller]

P4P isn't "worthless" because it's confusing. Rocket science is confusing and it's definitely not worthless. It's "worthless" in the sense that it's pure fantasy. It's 2016, it's physically impossible to isometrically scale people in real life, last time I checked.

The square cube law is basic physics, it's always relevant where there's constant gravity, last time I checked, fights don't take place in outer space.

And no, there aren't thousands of 6+ athletes with MM speed and agility. People who are 6+ do not move like MM does, doesn't matter if they're C level UFC guy or A level NFL baller. Simple demonstration: MM was a mediocre track athlete back in high school, his 100m time was around 11.2 seconds IIRC - it's a time even girls would laugh at, BUT, if you take into account MM's height, and scale this time to Usain Bolt's height, you get:

11.2 seconds / (195cm/160cm) = 9.18 seconds.

9.18 seconds. In other words, MM's pathetic 100m speed, P4P, when scaled to Usain Bolt's height, would make him by far the fastest 100m sprinter in the world and beyond some of the currently estimated theoretical limit for humans. You got thousands of 6+ athletes with that kind of speed? No you don't, you got none, because P4P is pure fantasy, and you get nonsense like this when you "scale" athletes to the same size.

so you're saying MM is best P4P

 

[LouisBolanos]

so you're saying MM is best P4P

Nope the cockroach in my kitchen destroys MM in P4P. Do you have any idea what a human sized cockroach could do?