Ufc vs Pride HW evolution 1998

Nah those fucking manlets are....

Manlet detected^^^^^^^
 
da best eva said:
Heavyweight has always been shit in all promotions
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I think you might have forgotten the PRIDE era when LHW/MW and HW were the marquee divisions in MMA. Big money was almost exclusive to those divisions and weight cutting wasn't as extreme as it is nowadays so almost all best fighters six feet or above fought there.
 
MiroHa said:
I think you might have forgotten the PRIDE era when LHW/MW and HW were the marquee divisions in MMA. Big money was almost exclusive to those divisions and weight cutting wasn't as extreme as it is nowadays so almost all best fighters six feet or above fought there.
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Not saying it isn't/wasn't entertaining, just saying the overall talent in division
 
da best eva said:
Not saying it isn't/wasn't entertaining, just saying the overall talent in division
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Talent is what I was talking about. More money attracts more talent. Divisions that didn't have a lot of talent back then were MW (185 lbs/83 kg) and divisions below LW because many fighters fought above their "natural" weight class for aforementioned reason.
 
MiroHa said:
Talent is what I was talking about. More money attracts more talent. Divisions that didn't have a lot of talent back then were MW (185 lbs/83 kg) and divisions below LW because many fighters fought above their "natural" weight class for aforementioned reason.
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"Divisions that didn't have a lot of talent back then were MW (185 lbs/83 kg)"...

When exactly and in which org?
 
DaPunkMinowaMan said:
"Divisions that didn't have a lot of talent back then were MW (185 lbs/83 kg)"...

When exactly and in which org?
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Umm, PRIDE and UFC? I also meant in comparison to 155, 170, 205 and HW which were more stacked back then. Nowadays MW top 10 or so is IMO clearly better than LHW/HW and has way more depth but it was the opposite during PRIDE era.

Like I said earlier, most of the current MW division would have been at LHW/HW 10 to 15 years ago.
 
MiroHa said:
Umm, PRIDE and UFC? I also meant in comparison to 155, 170, 205 and HW which were more stacked back then. Nowadays MW top 10 or so is IMO clearly better than LHW/HW and has way more depth but it was the opposite during PRIDE era.

Like I said earlier, most of the current MW division would have been at LHW/HW 10 to 15 years ago.
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UFC, ok, no-brainer, but Pride (even though technically it was a hybrid situation, MW/LHW)?
 
DaPunkMinowaMan said:
UFC, ok, no-brainer, but Pride (even though technically it was a hybrid situation, MW/LHW)?
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Well I guess you could say that since PRIDE had a decent roster with Hendo, Bustamante etc. but they fought more at 205 lbs. Later it started getting better with guys like Kang, Kazuo Misaki, Filho and others coming through Bushido events but it still wasn't comparable to 205 IMO.
 
FKA said:
UFC and Pride had only a few shows in 98 so it's easier to compare so let's dive in.

PRIDE HW ROSTER 1998

Igor Vovchanchyn(31-2)top HW
Mark Kerr(7-0)hot rising fighter
Gary Goodridge(7-5)Ufc vet mid tier
Pedro Otavio(13-4)mid tier
Emmanuel Yarborough(1-1)jobber
Hugo Duarte(5-1)touted prospect fresh off first loss in UFC
Akira Shoji(1-1-2)pro wrestler
Nobuhiko Takada(0-1)Pro wrestler
Alexander Otsuka(0-2)pro wrestler
Kyle sturgeon(0-0)jobber
Amir Rahnavardi(0-0)debut in mma
Naoki sano(0-0)pro wrestler

5 legit hws,3 mid tier pro wrestler transitioners,4 jobber.
----------------------------------------------
UFC HW ROSTER 1998

Kimo leopaldo(7-2-1)mid tier vet
Mark Coleman(6-1)rising mid tier
Pete Williams(7-1)top HW
TK(12-5)mid tier vet
Tank Abbott(7-6)jobber
Hugo Duarte(5-0)touted prospect
Mike Van Arsdale(3-0)touted prospect
Joe Pardo(1-1)jobber
Andre Roberts(1-0)jobber
Harry Moskowitz(2-4)jobber
Pedro Rizzo(5-0)rising mid tier

That's 6 legit hws,2 mid tier,4 jobber
===============================
My analysis....UFC wins 1998 but,the gap is closing in talent and it will be interesting to see the progression.

Next is 1999......
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For reference...

Here are the NHB / Vale Tudo / MMA Rankings from 1998 (found on the Wayback Machine/Internet Archive)...

1º Mark Kerr (Wrestling)
2º Mark Coleman (Wrestling)
3º Randy Couture (Wrestling)
4º Don Frye (Wrestling/Boxe)
5º Tom Erikson (Wrestling)
6º Vítor Belfort (Jiu-Jitsu/Boxe)
7º The Pedro (Kickboxing/Luta Livre)
8º Dan Severn (Wrestling)
9º Pedro Rizzo (Ruas Vale Tudo)
10º Carlos Barreto (Jiu-Jitsu)
11º Maurice Smith (Kickboxing), 12º Marco Ruas (Ruas Vale Tudo), 13º Roberto Traven (Jiu-Jitsu), 14º Hugo Duarte (Luta Livre), 15º Kevin Randleman (Wrestling/Boxe), 16º Gary Goodridge (Kuk Sool Won), 17º Zé Mário(Jiu-Jitsu), 18º Richard Heard(Sambô), 19º Ebenezer Fontes(Kickboxing/Luta Livre), 20º Ricardo Morais(Jiu-Jitsu)

1. "Mo PAIN" Smith (To be the man, you got to beat the man.)
2. Mark Kerr
3. Randy Couture (from 4th)
4. Mark Coleman (from 3rd)
5. Vitor Belfort
6. Dan Severn (from 7th)
7. Marco Ruas (from 6th)
8. Tank Abbott (from 10)
9. Don Frye (New this month)
10. Kimo Leopoldo (from 9th)
Honorable mention Alex Hunter! Who had a lot of votes...

1 - Mark Coleman
2 - Maurice Smith
3 - Randy Couture
4 - Marco Ruas
5 - The Pedro
6 - Mark Kerr
7 -Vitor Belfort
8 - Tom Erikson
9 - Dan Severn & Gary Goodridge
9 - Dan Severn & Gary Goodridge
10 - Ebenezer Fontes

PRIDE 2 - Mar 5
UFC 16 - Mar 13
UFC 17 - May 15

1) Rickson Gracie
2) Royce Gracie
3) Mark Kerr
4) Randy Couture
5) Maurice Smith

RINGS HOLLAND - Jun 7
PRIDE 3 - Jun 24
RINGS TOKYO - Jun 27
PRIDE 4 - Oct 11
UFC - ULTIMATE BRAZIL - Oct 16
VALE TUDO JAPAN - Oct 25

1.Bas Rutten: Tremendous striker w/ hands and feet.Can wait to see him w/ a closed fist.One of the most well rounded fighters in the game. Also has become a good grappler.Only man that can beat him is himself. Will dominate in the UFC. It would take a grea
2.Tom Erickson: The best wrestler of them all.The only thing that stopped him from winning numerous olympic titles was Bruce Baumgarter.Recently KO'd Randleman and Ed Dekrief(sp)which shows he can punch too One word: phenomenal!He is the only guy that could
3. Mark Kerr: "The Speciman"-perfect nickname. He is a machine who brings numerous skills into the octagon. I don't think many can hang w/ his combination of size and speed. Not as good a wrestler as Coleman or Erickson but has a better understanding of sub
4.Enson Inoue: Has a great understanding of submission and can fight from the top or bottom.Has some impressive wins.Think a fight w/ Zinovev would be different now.Must keep his cardio up at new weight.
5.Randy Couture: Excellent combo of standing and grappling skills.Greatly conditioned fighter. Would like to see him against Smith again.Also fights very intelligently. Must finish better,there are no pins inNHB.Will learn from his loss to Inoue and come b
6.Maurice Smith: The best striker w/ his hands and feet in the game. He was an EFC champ and a UFC champ. Brings an incredible amount of experience into the ring. Another plus is he is not afraid to learn a new style. Has lost a couple of matches in Japan
7.Igor Vovchanchin: Can't deny him a top spot anymore. Devastating striker, one of the best out there. I thought Leo Branca beat him but Igor got hometown decision. Has beaten everyone in front of him and only NHB loss(to Illoukine)was early in his career.
8.Mario Sperry: Awesome technical fighter. One of the best BJJ fightersin the world. Was best fighter at Abu Dhabi. Bet he wishes he took theRuas fight now. Would like to see what he could do in a bigger show like UFC, Pride or IVC.
9.Carlos Barretto: has only one loss. Won an impressive tournament in UVT6. Has one of the better guards in NHB. He'll be back.
10.Marco Ruas: a pretty good all around fighter. A typical "jack of all trades, master of none." Does everything well but nothing great. I'm not counting him out after only one loss.
Honorable mention: Dan Severn, Pedro Rizzo, Ricardo Morais, Vanderlei Da Silva, Gary Goodridge, Brian Johnston, Mark Coleman, Andre Roberts,Mike Van Arsdale, Tsuyoshi Koshaka, Pete Williams, Kimo.

1. Mark Kerr - Mark Kerr is possibly the most destructive force in NHB fighting today. He is/was an Olympic caliber wrestler (he tied with Coleman in '92), plus he has adapted well with various submissions, strikes, and positions from BJJ as well as Muay
2. Igor Vovchanchin - This man's accomplishements can no longer be ignored. I know many of you are thinking "WHO?" - but trust me, the man deserves it. I've personally never seen him fight, but his wins and record speak for themselves. He's won 3 tourname
3. Tsuyoshi Kohsaka - Kohsaka is a RINGS fighter who has entered the NHB world with some impressive wins. He won the semi-NHB Tournament of J event by beating Egan Inue in the finals, he defeated Kimo, and he defeated Pete Williams at UFC Brazil. Kohsaka
4. Pedro Rizzo - Rizzo is Ruas' top student and is a VERY good Muay Thai fighter who has power in both his hands and feet. He is a K1 level stand-up fighter, and on the ground he is also quite good, although still learning. He won the second ever WVC tour
5. Randy Couture - Couture is another Olympic caliber wrestler, but with skills in both Greco Roman (upper body) and Freestyle (lower body) wrestling. Couture also has experience in Sambo, boxing (while he was in the military), and has recently been train
Guys who are close: Tome Erikson (sorry, but he hasn't fought in nearly 2 years despite several offers), Marco Ruas (He's still good, but aging), Pete Williams (He looked OK against Kohsaka), and Rickson Gracie (The guy has talent but his bigget talent is

1. Mark Kerr
2. Randy Couture
3. Bas Rutten
4. Tom Erickson
5. Tsuyoshi Kohsaka
6. Pete Williams
7. Igor Vovchanchin
8. Marco Ruas
9. Gary Goodridge
10. Mark Coleman
Heavyweight Notes:Vitor Belfort may be dropping to 200lbs. to fight Jerry Bohlander in UFC Brazil... Bas Rutten will probably be facing Randy Couture in UFC Brazil...Vanderlei Silva KO'd Mike Van Arsdale in Vale Tudo competition…
 
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The rankings for 1998-1999 are from the original FightSport/Black Belt Magazine rankings, which were really the first organized, sport-like rankings for NHB I had ever seen in a major publication.

HEAVYWEIGHT end of 98 (over 200 lbs.)
1. Mark Kerr
2. Igor Vovchanchyn
3. Tsuyoshi Kohsaka
4. Pedro Rizzo
5. Maurice Smith
6. Pete Williams
7. Marco Ruas
8. Randy Couture
9. Tom Erikson
10. Bas Rutten
 
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CoffeeAndBeer said:
For reference...

Here are the NHB / Vale Tudo / MMA Rankings from 1998 (found on the Wayback Machine/Internet Archive)...

1º Mark Kerr (Wrestling)
2º Mark Coleman (Wrestling)
3º Randy Couture (Wrestling)
4º Don Frye (Wrestling/Boxe)
5º Tom Erikson (Wrestling)
6º Vítor Belfort (Jiu-Jitsu/Boxe)
7º The Pedro (Kickboxing/Luta Livre)
8º Dan Severn (Wrestling)
9º Pedro Rizzo (Ruas Vale Tudo)
10º Carlos Barreto (Jiu-Jitsu)
11º Maurice Smith (Kickboxing), 12º Marco Ruas (Ruas Vale Tudo), 13º Roberto Traven (Jiu-Jitsu), 14º Hugo Duarte (Luta Livre), 15º Kevin Randleman (Wrestling/Boxe), 16º Gary Goodridge (Kuk Sool Won), 17º Zé Mário(Jiu-Jitsu), 18º Richard Heard(Sambô), 19º Ebenezer Fontes(Kickboxing/Luta Livre), 20º Ricardo Morais(Jiu-Jitsu)

1. "Mo PAIN" Smith (To be the man, you got to beat the man.)
2. Mark Kerr
3. Randy Couture (from 4th)
4. Mark Coleman (from 3rd)
5. Vitor Belfort
6. Dan Severn (from 7th)
7. Marco Ruas (from 6th)
8. Tank Abbott (from 10)
9. Don Frye (New this month)
10. Kimo Leopoldo (from 9th)
Honorable mention Alex Hunter! Who had a lot of votes...

1 - Mark Coleman
2 - Maurice Smith
3 - Randy Couture
4 - Marco Ruas
5 - The Pedro
6 - Mark Kerr
7 -Vitor Belfort
8 - Tom Erikson
9 - Dan Severn & Gary Goodridge
9 - Dan Severn & Gary Goodridge
10 - Ebenezer Fontes

PRIDE 2 - Mar 5
UFC 16 - Mar 13
UFC 17 - May 15

1) Rickson Gracie
2) Royce Gracie
3) Mark Kerr
4) Randy Couture
5) Maurice Smith

RINGS HOLLAND - Jun 7
PRIDE 3 - Jun 24
RINGS TOKYO - Jun 27
PRIDE 4 - Oct 11
UFC - ULTIMATE BRAZIL - Oct 16
VALE TUDO JAPAN - Oct 25

1.Bas Rutten: Tremendous striker w/ hands and feet.Can wait to see him w/ a closed fist.One of the most well rounded fighters in the game. Also has become a good grappler.Only man that can beat him is himself. Will dominate in the UFC. It would take a grea
2.Tom Erickson: The best wrestler of them all.The only thing that stopped him from winning numerous olympic titles was Bruce Baumgarter.Recently KO'd Randleman and Ed Dekrief(sp)which shows he can punch too One word: phenomenal!He is the only guy that could
3. Mark Kerr: "The Speciman"-perfect nickname. He is a machine who brings numerous skills into the octagon. I don't think many can hang w/ his combination of size and speed. Not as good a wrestler as Coleman or Erickson but has a better understanding of sub
4.Enson Inoue: Has a great understanding of submission and can fight from the top or bottom.Has some impressive wins.Think a fight w/ Zinovev would be different now.Must keep his cardio up at new weight.
5.Randy Couture: Excellent combo of standing and grappling skills.Greatly conditioned fighter. Would like to see him against Smith again.Also fights very intelligently. Must finish better,there are no pins inNHB.Will learn from his loss to Inoue and come b
6.Maurice Smith: The best striker w/ his hands and feet in the game. He was an EFC champ and a UFC champ. Brings an incredible amount of experience into the ring. Another plus is he is not afraid to learn a new style. Has lost a couple of matches in Japan
7.Igor Vovchanchin: Can't deny him a top spot anymore. Devastating striker, one of the best out there. I thought Leo Branca beat him but Igor got hometown decision. Has beaten everyone in front of him and only NHB loss(to Illoukine)was early in his career.
8.Mario Sperry: Awesome technical fighter. One of the best BJJ fightersin the world. Was best fighter at Abu Dhabi. Bet he wishes he took theRuas fight now. Would like to see what he could do in a bigger show like UFC, Pride or IVC.
9.Carlos Barretto: has only one loss. Won an impressive tournament in UVT6. Has one of the better guards in NHB. He'll be back.
10.Marco Ruas: a pretty good all around fighter. A typical "jack of all trades, master of none." Does everything well but nothing great. I'm not counting him out after only one loss.
Honorable mention: Dan Severn, Pedro Rizzo, Ricardo Morais, Vanderlei Da Silva, Gary Goodridge, Brian Johnston, Mark Coleman, Andre Roberts,Mike Van Arsdale, Tsuyoshi Koshaka, Pete Williams, Kimo.

1. Mark Kerr - Mark Kerr is possibly the most destructive force in NHB fighting today. He is/was an Olympic caliber wrestler (he tied with Coleman in '92), plus he has adapted well with various submissions, strikes, and positions from BJJ as well as Muay
2. Igor Vovchanchin - This man's accomplishements can no longer be ignored. I know many of you are thinking "WHO?" - but trust me, the man deserves it. I've personally never seen him fight, but his wins and record speak for themselves. He's won 3 tourname
3. Tsuyoshi Kohsaka - Kohsaka is a RINGS fighter who has entered the NHB world with some impressive wins. He won the semi-NHB Tournament of J event by beating Egan Inue in the finals, he defeated Kimo, and he defeated Pete Williams at UFC Brazil. Kohsaka
4. Pedro Rizzo - Rizzo is Ruas' top student and is a VERY good Muay Thai fighter who has power in both his hands and feet. He is a K1 level stand-up fighter, and on the ground he is also quite good, although still learning. He won the second ever WVC tour
5. Randy Couture - Couture is another Olympic caliber wrestler, but with skills in both Greco Roman (upper body) and Freestyle (lower body) wrestling. Couture also has experience in Sambo, boxing (while he was in the military), and has recently been train
Guys who are close: Tome Erikson (sorry, but he hasn't fought in nearly 2 years despite several offers), Marco Ruas (He's still good, but aging), Pete Williams (He looked OK against Kohsaka), and Rickson Gracie (The guy has talent but his bigget talent is

1. Mark Kerr
2. Randy Couture
3. Bas Rutten
4. Tom Erickson
5. Tsuyoshi Kohsaka
6. Pete Williams
7. Igor Vovchanchin
8. Marco Ruas
9. Gary Goodridge
10. Mark Coleman
Heavyweight Notes:Vitor Belfort may be dropping to 200lbs. to fight Jerry Bohlander in UFC Brazil... Bas Rutten will probably be facing Randy Couture in UFC Brazil...Vanderlei Silva KO'd Mike Van Arsdale in Vale Tudo competition…
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Man, looking at these old rankings the current heavyweight top 10-15 isn't looking too good. Average fighter might be 10 pounds heavier nowadays, though.
 
1999 Year-End Rankings...


RINGS RISE 5th - Aug 19
PRIDE 7 - Sep 12
UFC 22 - Sep 24

1)Igor Vovchanchin
2)Mark Kerr
3) Randy Couture
4) Tom Erikson
5) Pedro Rizzo
6)Pete Williams
7)Carlão Barreto
8)Enson Inoue
9)T.Kohsaka
10)Kevin Randleman
Ron Waterman , Ricardo Morias , Gary Goodridge , Vernon "White Tiger" , Vladimir Matyushenko , Maurice Smith,

1) Mark Kerr (USA, Wrestling)
2) Igor Vovchanchin (Russia, Kickboxing)
3) Tom Erikson (USA, RAW Team)
4) Bas Rutten (Holland, BHJJ) (will drop down to middleweight)
5) Enson Inoue (Japan, Shooto)
Knocking on the door: Pedro Rizzo (Brazil, Randy Couture (USA, RAW team)

#1Mark Kerr
#2Bas Rutten
#3Kevin Randleman
#4Pete Williams
#5 Tsuyoshi Kohsaka
#6 Enson Inoue
#7 Marco Ruas
#8 Mo Smith
#9 Igor Vovchanchin
#10 Carlos Barretto

1.Mark Kerr: The guy has been nothing short of an animal since coming
2.Tom Erickson: This guy is the best wrestler of them all.A big guy
3.Carlos Barretto: The best Hwt. BJJer out there. Is current IVC champ
4.Bas Rutten: Former 3 time King of Pancrase titleholder. A brutal
5.Enson Inoue: A complete fighter who gets better w/ every fight. Takes
6.Kevin Randleman: an elite wrestler w/ incredible stamina who is
7.Igor Vovchanchin: One word to describe him is POWERFUL. The winner of
8.Randy Couture: Has great wrestling skill and is great at ground
9.Mario Sperry: winner of the Austrialian UFC and numerous sport and
10.Pedro Rizzo: Is a WVT 8-man tourn and Superfight winner. Has wins
Honorable mention: Jeremy Horn, Dan Severn, Pete Williams, Ricardo Morais, Gary Goodridge, Mo Smith, Mark Coleman, Marco Ruas, Tsuyoshi Kosaka.

RINGS KING OF KINGS - Oct 28

1 -Igor Vovchanchin
2 - Mark Kerr
3 - Kevin Randelman
4 - Pedro Rizzo
5 - Bas Rutten
6 - Carlão Barreto
7 - Francisco Bueno
8 - TK Kosaka
9 - Pete Willians
10 - Gary Goodridge

UFC 23 - Nov 19
PRIDE 8 - Nov 21

1. Igor Vovchanchin (Ukraine) - Ended Francisco Bueno's unbeaten streak with a brutal KO. Out gunned former top dog Mark Kerr to achieve a controversial "no contest". Split decision over Barreto. Beat up Shoji & TKO'd Gary Goodridge. Owns the best record
2. Pedro Rizzo (Brazil) - KO of Kohsaka makes him th 'people's champ'. TKO'd Tre Telligman. Split decision over Mark Coleman. KO'd Tank Abbott. WVC eight man tournament and WVC superfight winner. Undefeated in NHB. Ruas Vale Tudo.
3. Mark Kerr (USA) - Abu Dhabi victory over Barreto proves he can "roll" with the best. Hammered Hugo Duarte. Dispatched Pedro Cesar via submission. Still undefeated with two UFC four man tourneys under his belt. Hammer House.
4. Carlão Barreto (Brazil) - Gave Vovchanchin a tough go. Defeated Pedro Cesar to retain IVC belt. Choked out Hinkle in IVC 8. Eight man Brazilian Vale Tudo tournament winner. Carlson Gracie team.
5. Tom Erikson (USA) "The Big Cat" is back! Finally re-entered the NHB scene with a decision over Gary Goodridge (Pride). The sky's the limit. Undefeated with a KO win over Randleman. Four man Brazilian Vale Tudo tournament champ. RAW Team.
6. Kevin Randleman (USA) - Beat Pete Williams to gain the UFC heavyweight title. His controversial loss to Bas Rutten didn't hurt his reputation. Decisive win over the fading Maurice Smith. His brashness is good for the sport. Hammer House.
7. Enson Inoue (USA) - Defeated Randy Couture by armbar. UFC, Pride and Shooto veteran. Grappling Unlimited.
8. Tsuyoshi Kohsaka (Japan) - The man who whipped Tim Lajcik, Kimo and decisioned Pete Williams. Gave Bas Rutten all he could handle. AMC Sports.
9. Renato Babalu (Brazil) - Advanced in the RINGS tournament with two big wins. Strong Luta Livre combined with formidible punches and kicks. Ruas Vale Tudo.
10. Pete Williams (USA) - Spectacular KO win over Mark Coleman. Super Brawl champion. Lion's Den.

1. (1) Igor Vovchanchin (108)
2. (2) Mark Kerr (93)
3. (3) Pedro Rizzo (86)
4. (4) Kevin Randleman (74)
5. (u) Tom Erikson (49)
6. (5) Carlão Barreto (45)
7. (6) Enson Inoue (43)
8. (7) Tsuyoshi Kohsaka (28)
9. (u) Mark Coleman (23)
10. (8) Pete Williams (16)
14. Gilbert Yvel

RINGS OSAKA - Dec 22
 
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