Turinabol, Trace Metabolites, the Frank Mir Case

[Mga223]

They are correct. Maybe good for body building if guys aren't lifting super heavy but ...

Allow me this free public service address:

If you are a combat athlete, ESPECIALLY IF YOU GRAPPLE ... run away from TREN as fast as you can!

Sorry for hijacking @dimspace . Good read even if i do feel like I went from square one and just toured an interesting labyrinth back to square one.

I thought legit turinabol was extinct though? @dimspace

 

[Toco]

god bless mr. rodchenkov

 

[dim_]

I thought legit turinabol was extinct though? @dimspace

Nope.

Well officially its not manufactured anymore. But its still made in UGL's (Underground Labs)

as explained, Russia were using it in their "Duchess" blend up to and including the 2012 Olympics. Then they switched to Tren in their mix, at which point the guy doping the Russians released his research and the result was a shit ton of Belarussians, Khazaks, Uzbecks (basically Russias competition) and the like who had been copying the Russian program got busted

Was actually a pretty swift move.. Dope your athletes for years using substance x, wait till everyone copies you, switch to substance y and publish details on how to detect x

It all went to shit when wada decided to retroactively test all the old russian samples for "x"

 

[Mga223]

Nope.

Well officially its not manufactured anymore. But its still made in UGL's (Underground Labs)

as explained, Russia were using it in their "Duchess" blend up to and including the 2012 Olympics. Then they switched to Tren in their mix, at which point the guy doping the Russians released his research and the result was a shit ton of Belarussians, Khazaks, Uzbecks (basically Russias competition) and the like who had been copying the Russian program got busted

Was actually a pretty swift move.. Dope your athletes for years using substance x, wait till everyone copies you, switch to substance y and publish details on how to detect x

It all went to shit when wada decided to retroactively test all the old russian samples for "x"

Ahh yea that's it, it seem to be a great drug for athletes crazy it stopped being made legit.

Lol smart move but I guess it didn't work out, would love to know what the Americans are using these days.

 

[One MMA Fan]

Eh.. of course he cheated.. pro fucking sports people.

Spoiler

 

[Aforo88]

Nice read Dimspace!

Is it possible that the metabolites (M3, and others) that results in a positive turinabol test can come from other chemicals? Witch means innocent athletes is getting "caught"?

@dimspace

 

[Air Lats]

I thought legit turinabol was extinct though? @dimspace

Ahh yea that's it, it seem to be a great drug for athletes crazy it stopped being made legit.

Lol smart move but I guess it didn't work out, would love to know what the Americans are using these days.

I never heard of or saw it around at any gym or online or local Underground Lab. I know that's purely anecdotal and basically meaningless but I have been around a bit and the most populars and effective were just exo test in various esters or blends of esters, Anavar, Winstrol, Equipoise and sometimes deca-durabolin if athletes were heavier and not tested or taking time off from competition to rehab injuries.

Less used but also present was oral d-bol (and IM tren, obviously).

Off the top of my head, anyway.

 

[Mga223]

I never heard of or saw it around at any gym or online or local Underground Lab. I know that's purely anecdotal and basically meaningless but I have been around a bit and the most populars and effective were just exo test in various esters or blends of esters, Anavar, Winstrol, Equipoise and sometimes deca-durabolin if athletes were heavier and not tested or taking time off from competition to rehab injuries.

Less used but also present was oral d-bol (and IM tren, obviously).

Off the top of my head, anyway.

Legit never known of anyone selling it or using it myself but I'm young and most people at my gym have not used. (Same with me but I've always known about roids as I thought it was Fascinating).

Last place I was at was every bloke on sus/tren/deca and training chest 5x a week.

 

[Air Lats]

Legit never known of anyone selling it or using it myself but I'm young and most people at my gym have not used. (Same with me but I've always known about roids as I thought it was Fascinating).

Last place I was at was every bloke on sus/tren/deca and training chest 5x a week.

Lol - every day is chest day!

I did a lot of lifting but total lone wolf at the weight gym.

All of my experiences with connections were at MMA gyms where there were people I actually talked to and became real friends with.

When I strike the heavy bag at the weight gym people look at me like I'm a fucking martian. I do live in one of the P4P sissiest cities in the world, though.

 

[dim_]

Nice read Dimspace!

Is it possible that the metabolites (M3, and others) that results in a positive turinabol test can come from other chemicals? Witch means innocent athletes is getting "caught"?

@dimspace

Anything is theoretically possible. Part of Kopylovs argument against the new test is that the idea that the metabolites can come from other areas wasnt properly investigated.

on one hand yes, the original methodology has come from a Russian Dr at the Moscow lab which has since lost its licence, was found complicit in doping athletes, and was generally dodgy as fuck. And since being published there hasnt been any real scientific debate over the study (this is an argument thrown at wada a lot - that they take something as fact based on a study - implement measures but dont adequately study if the test/information is accurate).

One of Kopylov's arguments is that the verification assay is based on looking at results of analysis on a sample they determine to contain the metabolite and then comparring that with results of analysis on a sample that they know from prior testing contained turinabol.. This only proves that the metabolite is present as a result of turinabol but not that its present ONLY as a result of turinabol.

Must be noted that the IOC disciplinary panel who had both Kopylov and Saugy (Wada) in attendance discounted his theories (but again, just because an IOC board discounts them doesnt mean they are without merit)



Don Catlin also accepts that is possible

there is the theory that a common genetic anomaly, or another substance related to DHCMT that is present in the environment, could produce the same long-term DHCMT metabolite used for detection in trace amounts in some athletes—remote possibilities that have yet to be demonstrated.

But say it is a "remote possibility". A hearing will base decisions on balance of probability, therefore "remote possibility" in a hearings view means they can discount it, whereas Kopylov would argue that any remote possibility until conclusively disproven remains a "possibility" and therefore brings doubt.




Its one of these areas where WADA have accepted a study and a process and rolled it out without real debate, something that happens a lot (thats partly a funding issue - wada's funding is pretty minimal). On the other hand, its something that doctors like Kopylov who is basically defending Russian athletes (who we know were on a cocktail including turinabol) can be accused of deliberately being obtuse, and targeting small technicalities to make his argument to try and get athletes off.

 

[dim_]

Nice read Dimspace!

Is it possible that the metabolites (M3, and others) that results in a positive turinabol test can come from other chemicals? Witch means innocent athletes is getting "caught"?

@dimspace

my potential issue is that it is detectable for so long. We are talking reportedly months.

This makes it really difficult for an athlete that has genuinely done nothing wrong and been the victim of contamination (not saying this is the case with mir) to locate the source. We can all remember what supplements we took last week, maybe the week before. We declare on anti doping forms what medication taken in the last month, but do we remember what we took, maybe at a different gym, four months ago.


This is also part of my issue I have with retroactive testing, going back, 4, 8 years and testing samples.

99% of the time its clear cut, its new EPO tests that detect previously undetectable variants etc, but if 1% of the retroactive cases were contamination, or mistaken medication etc, its really hard for an athlete to demonstrate what they took 8 years ago.

 

[Mga223]

Lol - every day is chest day!

I did a lot of lifting but total lone wolf at the weight gym.

All of my experiences with connections were at MMA gyms where there were people I actually talked to and became real friends with.

When I strike the heavy bag at the weight gym people look at me like I'm a fucking martian. I do live in one of the P4P sissiest cities in the world, though.

Lmao Sydney?

 

[Air Lats]

Lmao Sydney?

Portland, OR, USA

Don't get me wrong, there are some tough guys here but the per capita toughness is awful. Every other guy is a lumberjack looking hipster that would straight up start crying if he grappled for one minute or got leg kicked once.

You have to go way out of your way - lol

Is it bad in Sydney? Never been to Australia though I'm well-traveled, especially for an American.

I thought every Aussie was a badass!!!

Jk of course I've met people from everywhere in India, SE Asia, UK, South Africa, Saudi and Europe.

That was an explain-a-brag if that wasn't clear.

 

[Sean Long]

Fucking Tren. Makes you strong and look great but brittle as hell. Nasty chemical crap.

Tore my hammy shooting a double - absolutely no reason.

Shit's poison.

Its strange you say that because my brother tore his hamstring while on Tren as well.

 

[boyer]

You get muscle tears on tren, because you get so strong so fast. I recently tore my lat doing deads on tren. I had easily met my goals the week before that I decided to throw another plate on each side and was doing it no problem, but tore my whole left lat. It was very unpleasant. Felt like a zipper was being unzipped inside my lat muscle and was completely black and blue after. Haven't been able to work my back for awhile which has been good because my lats are overly developed. Turinabol is around, but overrated in my opinion, basically dbol without the bloat.

 

[THECYNDlCATE]

lmao @ letting people like frank off the hook while also chastising jones for being unjustly accused of being a drug cheat. thank god he was actually cleared of everything and the truth came out

Lol, so being cleared is getting the max punishment?

 

[Air Lats]

Its strange you say that because my brother tore his hamstring while on Tren as well.

It did something to my tissue that made muscle and joint injuries FAR more likely, especially sub wrestling or anytime I'd have to fully engage a group of muscle fibers.

I wish i knew the actual mechanism but all I can say is that my muscles felt 'dry' and never fully warm and loose ... I am extremely flexible from training striking and grappling but on tren, things just didn't feel right.

Last day of a year long intensive coaching course and I shot a double on my buddy and my hammy felt like a rubber band that snapped in the middle. Red hot knife feeling immediately after. That's when I finally got it through my thick skull that tren was absolutely not appropriate for my sport.

I never looked better, though, lol. That poison is all show and no go. It can even give a chemical taste IN YOUR MOUTH immediately after an IM injection in the glute!

Poison.

I hope your brother recovered 100%. I was injured for about 8-10 weeks but evidently did not tear enough to notice an appreciable loss of performance after recovering.

 

[Air Lats]

You get muscle tears on tren, because you get so strong so fast. I recently tore my lat doing deads on tren. I had easily met my goals the week before that I decided to throw another plate on each side and was doing it no problem, but tore my whole left lat. It was very unpleasant. Felt like a zipper was being unzipped inside my lat muscle and was completely black and blue after. Haven't been able to work my back for awhile which has been good because my lats are overly developed. Turinabol is around, but overrated in my opinion, basically dbol without the bloat.

Torn lat?

Fuck that!

 

[boyer]

Torn lat?

Fuck that!

Yeah it's sucked . When I lift my arm up now over my head now it looks like a tendon is protruding out of my armpit. I went to a really good sports doctor who works with a lot of pro athletes and its healing. I don't know when I'll ever be able to train any grappling though.

 

[Peteyandjia]

From what I remember, Frank passed a test 4 weeks before the fight, and then failed one the week of the fight, but the failure was for 'trace amounts' which would make no sense, since he cleared the test 4 weeks previous. Just to add to the weirdness of the case.

People made fun of the 'kangaroo meat' idea but Frank says he doesn't take anything at all, not even legal stuff that could have been tainted, which is why he said he was so confused and all he could think of racking his brain was maybe tainted meat in Australia.