International Tulsi Gabbard, Rand Paul Placed on List of Russian Propagandists by Ukraine

Do you beleive that Tulsi Gabbard and Rand Paul are Russian Propagandists?

  • Total voters
    61
Fox by the Sea said:
they do.

why not both?

so is "the US had absolutely NO responsibility for the escalation that led to invasion". it's just the opposite propaganda.

well the most common one is deliberately pursuing a foreign policy that came in direct opposition with the security concerns of the russians. i mean, that's pretty obvious. acting like the US did nothing of the sort is just silly. imagine russians bringing weapons to some close island like cuba. how would the US have reacted to that?

before starting a huge back and fort, just know i don't give a shit about the russians. i'm close enough, as a country, to them to know i'm not safe and they would, if they could and we weren't in nato, just waltz right in. i am sure they could. big countries fuck around with smaller countries all the time. the russians do it, americans do it, the chinese do it. if i am to choose a side i am firmly in the euro-atlantic side.

but sitting there and claiming america had ZERO responsibility for the escalation that led to war is just cartoonish to me.
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I'll try to keep this short rather than go so deep into the subject that I need to merge it into the other Ukraine thread since this is a distinct subject about Rand and Tulsi.

It cannot be both. Our interactions with Ukraine cannot be justification for Russia to do something to the Ukraine. If we do something directly to Russia, a la on their soil, then a response to us makes sense. If Ukraine does something that concerns Russia then Russia's response to Ukraine makes sense. But in nether scenario is our interaction with Ukraine a justification for Russia to do something to the Ukraine. Rather Ukraine's interactions with us is the justification. Same parties, different responsibilities.

I'll try and use people to illustrate my point. Lets say "Andy" (America), "Rick" (Russia) and "Kyle" (Ukraine) are our protagonists. Rick and Kyle have beef. Kyle asks Andy for some help with his house. Rick gets pissed and punches Kyle. That's between Rick and Kyle. It's not Andy's fault if the thing that Kyle asked for pisses off Rick, that's Kyle's fault. He asked for whatever it is. So the blame lies with Kyle for making the request.

OTOH, Andy offers to help Kyle with his house and that pisses off Rick. Again, not Andy's fault. Kyle is responsible for saying yes or no to Andy and living with the consequences. If Andy's help make Rick go apeshit, Kyle should have declined Andy's help. But it's still not Andy's fault if Rick doesn't want Kyle getting help from Andy.

In either direction, the issue is between Kyle and Rick and Andy isn't responsible for how Rick responds to something. Kyle is or Rick is. Any other conclusion and that means that Rick tells Andy what to do and Andy has to listen otherwise Rick beats up random people? It's blame shifting to hold Andy responsible for Kyle's actions.

Back to the nation's thing -- we have a global foreign policy. We're not responsible if one nation decides to invade another nation after the second nation seeks our help. The nation seeking our help has to be responsible for their own choices here -- they don't have to ask for our help and they can always say they don't want our help. Either way, it's their responsibility to make the decision, not ours.

Sadly, "short" did not work out.
 
Seano said:
All those billions we've sent Ukraine should buy Joe more than Tulsi and Paul being put on some list.
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All the evidence against Hunter has also suddenly disappeared. Protecting them against Russian aggression is just the excuse they're using to send the money.
 
THE BOSS said:
Because we know 99% of that money is being funneled back to the U.S politicians who sent it in the first place.
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And 99% of the weapons are being sold on the black market to terrorists in Europe.
 
panamaican said:
I'll try to keep this short rather than go so deep into the subject that I need to merge it into the other Ukraine thread since this is a distinct subject about Rand and Tulsi.

It cannot be both. Our interactions with Ukraine cannot be justification for Russia to do something to the Ukraine. If we do something directly to Russia, a la on their soil, then a response to us makes sense. If Ukraine does something that concerns Russia then Russia's response to Ukraine makes sense. But in nether scenario is our interaction with Ukraine a justification for Russia to do something to the Ukraine. Rather Ukraine's interactions with us is the justification. Same parties, different responsibilities.

I'll try and use people to illustrate my point. Lets say "Andy" (America), "Rick" (Russia) and "Kyle" (Ukraine) are our protagonists. Rick and Kyle have beef. Kyle asks Andy for some help with his house. Rick gets pissed and punches Kyle. That's between Rick and Kyle. It's not Andy's fault if the thing that Kyle asked for pisses off Rick, that's Kyle's fault. He asked for whatever it is. So the blame lies with Kyle for making the request.

OTOH, Andy offers to help Kyle with his house and that pisses off Rick. Again, not Andy's fault. Kyle is responsible for saying yes or no to Andy and living with the consequences. If Andy's help make Rick go apeshit, Kyle should have declined Andy's help. But it's still not Andy's fault if Rick doesn't want Kyle getting help from Andy.

In either direction, the issue is between Kyle and Rick and Andy isn't responsible for how Rick responds to something. Kyle is or Rick is. Any other conclusion and that means that Rick tells Andy what to do and Andy has to listen otherwise Rick beats up random people? It's blame shifting to hold Andy responsible for Kyle's actions.

Back to the nation's thing -- we have a global foreign policy. We're not responsible if one nation decides to invade another nation after the second nation seeks our help. The nation seeking our help has to be responsible for their own choices here -- they don't have to ask for our help and they can always say they don't want our help. Either way, it's their responsibility to make the decision, not ours.

Sadly, "short" did not work out.
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fair enough. agree to disagree on some points, but it's not a major disagreement. i'll try to give a longer answer tomorrow, using your friends analogy, to portray how i think some people see the situation.
 
What if the Truth is they are 2 of only a few that are not Ukrainian "agents"
 
panamaican said:
I'll try to keep this short rather than go so deep into the subject that I need to merge it into the other Ukraine thread since this is a distinct subject about Rand and Tulsi.

It cannot be both. Our interactions with Ukraine cannot be justification for Russia to do something to the Ukraine. If we do something directly to Russia, a la on their soil, then a response to us makes sense. If Ukraine does something that concerns Russia then Russia's response to Ukraine makes sense. But in nether scenario is our interaction with Ukraine a justification for Russia to do something to the Ukraine. Rather Ukraine's interactions with us is the justification. Same parties, different responsibilities.

I'll try and use people to illustrate my point. Lets say "Andy" (America), "Rick" (Russia) and "Kyle" (Ukraine) are our protagonists. Rick and Kyle have beef. Kyle asks Andy for some help with his house. Rick gets pissed and punches Kyle. That's between Rick and Kyle. It's not Andy's fault if the thing that Kyle asked for pisses off Rick, that's Kyle's fault. He asked for whatever it is. So the blame lies with Kyle for making the request.

OTOH, Andy offers to help Kyle with his house and that pisses off Rick. Again, not Andy's fault. Kyle is responsible for saying yes or no to Andy and living with the consequences. If Andy's help make Rick go apeshit, Kyle should have declined Andy's help. But it's still not Andy's fault if Rick doesn't want Kyle getting help from Andy.

In either direction, the issue is between Kyle and Rick and Andy isn't responsible for how Rick responds to something. Kyle is or Rick is. Any other conclusion and that means that Rick tells Andy what to do and Andy has to listen otherwise Rick beats up random people? It's blame shifting to hold Andy responsible for Kyle's actions.

Back to the nation's thing -- we have a global foreign policy. We're not responsible if one nation decides to invade another nation after the second nation seeks our help. The nation seeking our help has to be responsible for their own choices here -- they don't have to ask for our help and they can always say they don't want our help. Either way, it's their responsibility to make the decision, not ours.

Sadly, "short" did not work out.
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A more accurate portrayal is that Kyle is Karen, and Karen and Rick Divorced back in 1991 with a judge ordered separation signed by both parties and Karen getting custody of their child Charlie (crimea) if Karen doesnt attempt to sue for alimony or child support.
Suddenly Rick starts stalking Karen around when he notices her at that new singles club, club EU. To make matters worse, Rick kidnaps Charlie and is holding him locked up in room. Well Karen has a problem with this and decides to call the local sheriff Uriah (UN) and ask what to do. But Rick isnt about to let Karen get the LAW involved, so he threatens Karen that if she continues to try to get the law involved in matters, things are going to get a lot worse. Well Karen has seen what Rick did to his other ex's, and doesnt want to get in the same situation Georgina got herself into, so she decides to appeal for help from the Nat, a personal protective agency whose primary CEO, Andy, has something of a history with Rick.

So now Karen is getting self defense lessons from Nat and Andy and Rick is showing up every night throwing vodka bottles at her house and harassing her at her place of work, the grocery store. Its not Nats fault nor Andy's fault that Rick is a violent drunk who scares away all his meaningful relationships because of his selfish ways. Besides, Rick has his current girlfriend Betty (bulgaria) but nobody see's much of her and when they do she keeps her mouth quiet and is always wearing heavy makeup and sunglass over her oddly swollen eye.
 
LangfordBarrow said:
Pre '22? Like when Russia interferes in Ukraine's election and attempted a political assassination to have their puppet in power? Or annexing Ukrainian territory when their corrupt puppet was given the boot? And we're talking about internationally recognized borders. The West didn't arbitrarily draw them. Russia itself recognized those borders when it went bankrupt and lost control of it's satellite states.
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His argument about West and borders are weird or my English is bad. I don’t think borders of Ukrainian SSR or RSFSR was decided by West.
Btw, strange that people forgot that USSR tried to do same stuff with “people republic” with Iran. But at that time it was evil Persians who were banning Azeri language and discriminating them.
 
LangfordBarrow said:
Pre '22? Like when Russia interferes in Ukraine's election and attempted a political assassination to have their puppet in power? Or annexing Ukrainian territory when their corrupt puppet was given the boot? And we're talking about internationally recognized borders. The West didn't arbitrarily draw them. Russia itself recognized those borders when it went bankrupt and lost control of it's satellite states.
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Russia's playing the same tired game they've been playing with Ukraine since Stalin was in power. He was terrified of Ukrainian nationalism, because he wanted complete control of the Soviet borderlands. One of Stalin's main propaganda techniques in the early cold war era was to link Ukrainian nationalism with German fascism by constantly calling Ukrainian insurgents "German-Ukrainian nationalists," or Nazis. This hasn't changed and some of our defective units on Sherdog buy into it, hook, line and sinker. "The DeNazification of Ukraine!"

Many Ukrainians did initially welcome the German advance into Ukraine - because 1 out of every 8 Ukrainian starved to death in the early 1930's. It was a genocide caused by official Soviet policy. Hundreds of thousands of Ukrainians also went on to die in purges and more than 1 million were deported out of Ukraine. This all crushed their capacity for open resistance for decades.
 
Roaming East said:
A more accurate portrayal is that Kyle is Karen, and Karen and Rick Divorced back in 1991 with a judge ordered separation signed by both parties and Karen getting custody of their child Charlie (crimea) if Karen doesnt attempt to sue for alimony or child support.
Suddenly Rick starts stalking Karen around when he notices her at that new singles club, club EU. To make matters worse, Rick kidnaps Charlie and is holding him locked up in room. Well Karen has a problem with this and decides to call the local sheriff Uriah (UN) and ask what to do. But Rick isnt about to let Karen get the LAW involved, so he threatens Karen that if she continues to try to get the law involved in matters, things are going to get a lot worse. Well Karen has seen what Rick did to his other ex's, and doesnt want to get in the same situation Georgina got herself into, so she decides to appeal for help from the Nat, a personal protective agency whose primary CEO, Andy, has something of a history with Rick.

So now Karen is getting self defense lessons from Nat and Andy and Rick is showing up every night throwing vodka bottles at her house and harassing her at her place of work, the grocery store. Its not Nats fault nor Andy's fault that Rick is a violent drunk who scares away all his meaningful relationships because of his selfish ways. Besides, Rick has his current girlfriend Betty (bulgaria) but nobody see's much of her and when they do she keeps her mouth quiet and is always wearing heavy makeup and sunglass over her oddly swollen eye.
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clapping-applause.gif

well done!
 
HOLA said:
Russia's playing the same tired game they've been playing with Ukraine since Stalin was in power. He was terrified of Ukrainian nationalism, because he wanted complete control of the Soviet borderlands. One of Stalin's main propaganda techniques in the early cold war era was to link Ukrainian nationalism with German fascism by constantly calling Ukrainian insurgents "German-Ukrainian nationalists," or Nazis. This hasn't changed and some of our defective units on Sherdog buy into it, hook, line and sinker. "The DeNazification of Ukraine!"

Many Ukrainians did initially welcome the German advance into Ukraine - because 1 out of every 8 Ukrainian starved to death in the early 1930's. It was a genocide caused by official Soviet policy. Hundreds of thousands of Ukrainians also went on to die in purges and more than 1 million were deported out of Ukraine. This all crushed their capacity for open resistance for decades.
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Personally, I think that problem with Nazis and Russia is that Russian officials shit on Ukraine and Baltic countries for praising of people connected to Nazis while Armenia does the same and officials like Zakharova says that it’s inner Armenian business, not Russian. Plus, forgetting that there is streets in Russia named after shady people connected to Nazis, that big friend Syria has a history with Nazis or Putin being fan of writer Ilin who was pro-Nazi Germany.
 
panamaican said:
I'll try and use people to illustrate my point. Lets say "Andy" (America), "Rick" (Russia) and "Kyle" (Ukraine) are our protagonists. Rick and Kyle have beef. Kyle asks Andy for some help with his house. Rick gets pissed and punches Kyle. That's between Rick and Kyle. It's not Andy's fault if the thing that Kyle asked for pisses off Rick, that's Kyle's fault. He asked for whatever it is. So the blame lies with Kyle for making the request.

OTOH, Andy offers to help Kyle with his house and that pisses off Rick. Again, not Andy's fault. Kyle is responsible for saying yes or no to Andy and living with the consequences. If Andy's help make Rick go apeshit, Kyle should have declined Andy's help. But it's still not Andy's fault if Rick doesn't want Kyle getting help from Andy.

In either direction, the issue is between Kyle and Rick and Andy isn't responsible for how Rick responds to something. Kyle is or Rick is. Any other conclusion and that means that Rick tells Andy what to do and Andy has to listen otherwise Rick beats up random people? It's blame shifting to hold Andy responsible for Kyle's actions.

Back to the nation's thing -- we have a global foreign policy. We're not responsible if one nation decides to invade another nation after the second nation seeks our help. The nation seeking our help has to be responsible for their own choices here -- they don't have to ask for our help and they can always say they don't want our help. Either way, it's their responsibility to make the decision, not ours.

Sadly, "short" did not work out.
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ok, an answer, as promised. or more of an illustration of how the russians view things, using your example.
in the extended version, andy, rick and kyle have history between them. kyle's house did not even exist until rick built it and then gave it to kyle. andy had been in a state of conflict, more or less open, with rick, for decades. andy has been funding the guys that throw bricks in ricks's business windows, and rick has been doing the same with the guys that slash andy's car tires from his business. there's a constant conflict between the two. the houses at the end of rick's street enter in a coalition with andy, more and more houses, closing in on rick's place. rick feels threatened and lets andy know. at one point rick tried to place large gallons of oil right next to andy's house, and andy threatened to blow up the entire block if that happens, so rick pulled back. now, in rick's mind, andy is doing the same, coming closer and closer to rick's house, until it becomes apparent that andy is in negotiations to enter in an alliance with Kyle, who is right next door to rick, and whose house rick built. at this point, in rick's mind, there's only one solution - try to take over kyle's house.

this is of course a very shallow presentation, but it is, in my experience, how russians view the situation.
i feel your example lacked the needed historical context and it started the presentation like there was no baggage before the story began.

again, this is not how i see the situation. but i know for a fact this is how the russians see it, cause i basically grew up listening to this type of discourse and it's this discourse that has been brewing for the last 20 years. small countries like mine are always left in pieces after the big boys fight. it really means nothing to a small country, that is devastated by war, that this side or that claims the moral upper hand of the discourse. what i want is peace but it looks like none of the big countries want it. russia doesn't, america doesn't, china doesn't. it feels a lot like the eve of the first world war, where everybody was itching for a fight. so my expectations for the future aren't so rosy. i expect hundreds of thousands of ukrainian dead and a country torn to shreds, while zelenski gets a nobel prize and a villa in america. i expect tens of thousands of russian dead and putin and his gang of corrupt criminals to still roll in billions. and i expect china to soon start doing the imperial stomp as well.
 
HOLA said:
Russia's playing the same tired game they've been playing with Ukraine since Stalin was in power. He was terrified of Ukrainian nationalism, because he wanted complete control of the Soviet borderlands. One of Stalin's main propaganda techniques in the early cold war era was to link Ukrainian nationalism with German fascism by constantly calling Ukrainian insurgents "German-Ukrainian nationalists," or Nazis. This hasn't changed and some of our defective units on Sherdog buy into it, hook, line and sinker. "The DeNazification of Ukraine!"

Many Ukrainians did initially welcome the German advance into Ukraine - because 1 out of every 8 Ukrainian starved to death in the early 1930's. It was a genocide caused by official Soviet policy. Hundreds of thousands of Ukrainians also went on to die in purges and more than 1 million were deported out of Ukraine. This all crushed their capacity for open resistance for decades.
Click to expand...
Ukrainian conflict goes a lot deeper than Stalin's soviet's Russia.
 
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