TRT Before UFC 117 and Chael Sonnen

[MDEmike]

Anyone know the history of TRT (testosterone replacement therapy) in the UFC before UFC 117?

This topic was recently discussed briefly on my show (due to Rothwell), and we decided to look into the history of TRT. We came up short when looking for answers, so I'm turning to you guys.

I was also looking into a possible change in testing methods in the UFC around that era, originally because I thought there might be a correlation between HGH testing and the emergence of TRT. However, I was wrong about HGH testing-- the UFC never started testing (the NFL did.)

That doesn't mean that there wasn't a change in the athletic commission's methods that would force fighters to change usage, especially the testing of "elevated levels", which is something you hear more about of late. Before, when someone failed, it was for a specific steroid ie. Nandrolone, Masteron, etc. I cannot recall a fighter getting suspended for "elevated levels" until the days of TRT.

 

[RakodaJay**]

Hendo was on TRT since his 2006. Hendo popularized TRT use in MMA.

 

[aker2703]

Anyone know the history of TRT (testosterone replacement therapy) in the UFC before UFC 117?

This topic was recently discussed briefly on my show (due to Rothwell), and we decided to look into the history of TRT. We came up short when looking for answers, so I'm turning to you guys.

I was also looking into a possible change in testing methods in the UFC around that era, originally because I thought there might be a correlation between HGH testing and the emergence of TRT. However, I was wrong about HGH testing-- the UFC never started testing (the NFL did.)

That doesn't mean that there wasn't a change in the athletic commission's methods that would force fighters to change usage, especially the testing of "elevated levels", which is something you hear more about of late. Before, when someone failed, it was for a specific steroid ie. Nandrolone, Masteron, etc. I cannot recall a fighter getting suspended for "elevated levels" until the days of TRT.

TRT before UFC 117? is that just your way of hating on Chael? do you think he was the first or something.

secondly, and i could be wrong, the NFL does not test for HGH. they want to but the NFLPA keeps blocking it.

 

[MDEmike]

TRT before UFC 117? is that just your way of hating on Chael? do you think he was the first or something.

secondly, and i could be wrong, the NFL does not test for HGH. they want to but the NFLPA keeps blocking it.

Well, before 117, it wasn't really a big issue (to my recollection.) No hate on Chael. I'm on the fence with TRT, but I was just curious what the history of it was pre-dating that incident. If anything, I was looking to avoid flaming Chael and anyone who followed by specifically asking for TRT before Chael. Everyone on this site seems to assume everything is either flaming or trolling... This is a code I have yet to crack apparently.

I did read about Hendo being on for 6 years. He said that in an interview. Was it known at the time?

*edit* seems you're right about the NFL. They had it passed a short will in 2011/2012, though.

 

[spid3yo]

They knew Johnnie Morton's ratio back in 07' (csac) but I don't think they ever found what substance

 

[SocraticMethod]

Well, before 117, it wasn't really a big issue (to my recollection.) No hate on Chael. I'm on the fence with TRT, but I was just curious what the history of it was pre-dating that incident. If anything, I was looking to avoid flaming Chael and anyone who followed by specifically asking for TRT before Chael. Everyone on this site seems to assume everything is either flaming or trolling... This is a code I have yet to crack apparently.

I did read about Hendo being on for 6 years. He said that in an interview. Was it known at the time?

*edit* seems you're right about the NFL. They had it passed a short will in 2011/2012, though.

I think MLB starting testing for HGH once per season during Spring Training, or perhaps will this season.

 

[aker2703]

Well, before 117, it wasn't really a big issue (to my recollection.) No hate on Chael. I'm on the fence with TRT, but I was just curious what the history of it was pre-dating that incident. If anything, I was looking to avoid flaming Chael and anyone who followed by specifically asking for TRT before Chael. Everyone on this site seems to assume everything is either flaming or trolling... This is a code I have yet to crack apparently.

I did read about Hendo being on for 6 years. He said that in an interview. Was it known at the time?

well the first thing is Chael was not on TRT at UFC 117, he just failed the test. Chael was only granted a TUE for TRT May 2012. and no offense but if you did your home work you would know of plenty of fighters who were granted a TUE for TRT way before him (hell maybe try Google)

also if you are serious about finding out info regarding TRT (and not trolling) then i would suggest sending an E-Mail to Keith Kizer at the NSAC. he is very helpful and will normally give you the INFO is he is allowed.

 

[SocraticMethod]

well the first thing is Chael was not on TRT at UFC 117, he just failed the test. Chael was only granted a TUE for TRT May 2012. and no offense but if you did your home work you would know of plenty of fighters who were granted a TUE for TRT way before him (hell maybe try Google)

also if you are serious about finding out info regarding TRT (and not trolling) then i would suggest sending an E-Mail to Keith Kizer at the NSAC. he is very helpful and will normally give you the INFO is he is allowed.

What do you mean by this? Chael has said all along, I thought, that he was on TRT for UFC 117 and that he was on it for prior fights, but that he didn't properly do the paperwork to get his TUE for 117. That was the whole thing with telling CSAC that he thought he was good to go because he had previously disclosed everything to NSAC for a prior fight and then being embarrassed to say something in front of other fighters, etc. I'm not weighing in on whether it was true or not, but wasn't that the story?

I think it's fair to say that the aftermath of UFC 117 was the tipping point for TRT becoming a story. Fighters may have been using it before that, but it was only after UFC 117 and Sonnen's hearing that it became a hot topic of discussion. It was only after UFC 117 that any time a fighter got a TUE there was an article about it, etc. There are a lot of cheap shots taken at Sonnen and other TRT users on this board, but this thread really didn't strike me as one, fwiw.

 

[aker2703]

What do you mean by this? Chael has said all along, I thought, that he was on TRT for UFC 117 and that he was on it for prior fights, but that he didn't properly do the paperwork to get his TUE for 117. That was the whole thing with telling CSAC that he thought he was good to go because he had previously disclosed everything to NSAC for a prior fight and then being embarrassed to say something in front of other fighters, etc. I'm not weighing in on whether it was true or not, but wasn't that the story?

I think it's fair to say that the aftermath of UFC 117 was the tipping point for TRT becoming a story. Fighters may have been using it before that, but it was only after UFC 117 and Sonnen's hearing that it became a hot topic of discussion. It was only after UFC 117 that any time a fighter got a TUE there was an article about it, etc. There are a lot of cheap shots taken at Sonnen and other TRT users on this board, but this thread really didn't strike me as one, fwiw.

he was lying. he never had a TUE for TRT, he was just juicing. he tried the paperwork was misplaced/wrong defense, but this got shotdown when Keith Kizer told the CSAC that he had never had a conversation with Chael or his people regarding TRT.

the joke about this whole situation was even though Chael lied to the CSAC about the NSAC giving him a TRT exemption, and lied about what the Director of the NSAC said to him. the NSAC was the one that finally did give him the TUE for TRT.

 

[thechoice2]

What do you mean by this? Chael has said all along, I thought, that he was on TRT for UFC 117 and that he was on it for prior fights, but that he didn't properly do the paperwork to get his TUE for 117. That was the whole thing with telling CSAC that he thought he was good to go because he had previously disclosed everything to NSAC for a prior fight and then being embarrassed to say something in front of other fighters, etc. I'm not weighing in on whether it was true or not, but wasn't that the story?

I think it's fair to say that the aftermath of UFC 117 was the tipping point for TRT becoming a story. Fighters may have been using it before that, but it was only after UFC 117 and Sonnen's hearing that it became a hot topic of discussion. It was only after UFC 117 that any time a fighter got a TUE there was an article about it, etc. There are a lot of cheap shots taken at Sonnen and other TRT users on this board, but this thread really didn't strike me as one, fwiw.

Basically Sonnen said he was on TRT as far back as his fight against Yushin Okami if memrory serves me correctly. However no paperwork proving evidence of that claim ever came to fruition, also if Chael was on TRT then like he said, and he was tested for that fight...shouldn't he have failed the test since his T:E ratio would have been checked and not his testosterone levels in his blood, since the regularly administered test would only check the ratio of testosterone to epitestosterone that occurs naturally in the body.

 

[SocraticMethod]

he was lying. he never had a TUE for TRT, he was just juicing. he tried the paperwork was misplaced/wrong defense, but this got shotdown when Keith Kizer told the CSAC that he had never had a conversation with Chael or his people regarding TRT.

the joke about this whole situation was even though Chael lied to the CSAC about the NSAC giving him a TRT exemption, and lied about what the Director of the NSAC said to him. the NSAC was the one that finally did give him the TUE for TRT.

OK. Thanks for clarifying.

 

[Mikeyz]

Hendo was on TRT since his 2006. Hendo popularized TRT use in MMA.

What he said

 

[SocraticMethod]

Basically Sonnen said he was on TRT as far back as his fight against Yushin Okami if memrory serves me correctly. However no paperwork proving evidence of that claim ever came to fruition, also if Chael was on TRT then like he said, and he was tested for that fight...shouldn't he have failed the test since his T:E ratio would have been checked and not his testosterone levels in his blood, since the regularly administered test would only check the ratio of testosterone to epitestosterone that occurs naturally in the body.

That raises something I've been thinking about lately. My understanding has been that, if you're on TRT they need to do the blood test because just testing the T:E ratio will be all wonky since you've got synthetic T in you that will raise your T but not your E. But I was thinking, T:E is typically 1:1, whether your natural T is high, low or normal. So your low T fighter would still be around 1:1. I think (and I could have this point wrong) that if you have a TUE you're supposed to test somewhere in the 500 range. In other words, I don't think you're allowed to use TRT to hit the upper possible limits of T levels (around 1200 I think).

Now (and this is another part I may have wrong) I think having a T level of 200 is pretty damn low. But let's use 100, which I think would be very low.

So, if you have a T level of 100 ng/dL, and you're at a 1:1 ratio, and then you supplement to get up to 600, you'd be at 6:1 and would still be at the very end of the acceptable T:E ratio. If you're at 200 ng/dL and supplement up to 600, then you'd only be at 3:1, well within the allowable ratio.

In other words, it would seem like only a really, really extreme case where someone, even on a TUE, would be above the 6:1 ratio. To get to 17:1, it just doesn't seem like there's any way his actual levels could have been in that 500-600 wheelhouse. Same for Reem at 14:1.

But again, I very well could have the science wrong in terms of (a) what would constitute the type of low T we're dealing with that needs to be supplemented; or (b) what the actual levels of T you're allowed to supplement to is. In other words, if 1,000 ng/dL is allowed, and you're at 100, supplementing to 1,000 would, in theory, give you a 10:1, so you'd be out of the ratio but still within the permitted level. Or maybe we could be dealing with starting levels of 50 ng/dL. I don't know. I'm certainly not trying to come off like an expert or even a guy who knows more than the average Sherdogger.

 

[markg171]

That raises something I've been thinking about lately. My understanding has been that, if you're on TRT they need to do the blood test because just testing the T:E ratio will be all wonky since you've got synthetic T in you that will raise your T but not your E. But I was thinking, T:E is typically 1:1, whether your natural T is high, low or normal. So your low T fighter would still be around 1:1. I think (and I could have this point wrong) that if you have a TUE you're supposed to test somewhere in the 500 range. In other words, I don't think you're allowed to use TRT to hit the upper possible limits of T levels (around 1200 I think).

Now (and this is another part I may have wrong) I think having a T level of 200 is pretty damn low. But let's use 100, which I think would be very low.

So, if you have a T level of 100 ng/dL, and you're at a 1:1 ratio, and then you supplement to get up to 600, you'd be at 6:1 and would still be at the very end of the acceptable T:E ratio. If you're at 200 ng/dL and supplement up to 600, then you'd only be at 3:1, well within the allowable ratio.

In other words, it would seem like only a really, really extreme case where someone, even on a TUE, would be above the 6:1 ratio. To get to 17:1, it just doesn't seem like there's any way his actual levels could have been in that 500-600 wheelhouse. Same for Reem at 14:1.

But again, I very well could have the science wrong in terms of (a) what would constitute the type of low T we're dealing with that needs to be supplemented; or (b) what the actual levels of T you're allowed to supplement to is. In other words, if 1,000 ng/dL is allowed, and you're at 100, supplementing to 1,000 would, in theory, give you a 10:1, so you'd be out of the ratio but still within the permitted level. Or maybe we could be dealing with starting levels of 50 ng/dL. I don't know. I'm certainly not trying to come off like an expert or even a guy who knows more than the average Sherdogger.

Athletes are more likely to have a ratio of 2:1 or higher naturally.

So if a guy like Chael had low testosterone, he'd have even lower epitosterone. Using your 100ng/dl example, he'd have 100ng/dl testosterone and say 50ng/dl of epitosterone.

Boosting his testosterone up to normal levels, he'd suddenly say have 500ng/dl of testosterone but still be at 50ng/dl of epistesterone. Or 10:1 T/E ratio, but his testosterone levels would still be perfectly fine but his ratio wouldn't.

Also, when you take your testosterone shot is important because the initial shot will overload your system and say your T/E ratio and testosterone levels are way high, but after a day or two it'll fall back down to a normal range and levels. Your body experiences a high and then normalizes.

So for a guy to hit 14:1 or 17:1 T/E ratio while on TRT is actually very likely to happen and nothing odd at all which is why you have to look at the athletes actual levels to determine if they're cheating as a T/E ratio will tell you shit. Which is why Chael's suspension was reversed because when you consider he was on TRT, his test makes sense and is normal