Travis Stevens: "BJJ is NOT more complex than Judo, not even in the same ballpark."

[Salves sod Iqueac]

Just putting this here.

http://www.bjjintensivecamp.com/not...view-from-the-joe-rogan-podcast-john-danaher/

"...

• ...
• ...
• Work your way through a hierarchy of positions! The positions count different points in tournaments. Why? Because all the positions are measured by the way you can strike on the ground!
  • Sidecontrol
  • Knee on belly – better then sidecontrol but not as stable as mount!
  • Mount
  • Backmount
• ..."

https://nwfighting.com/brazilian-jiu-jitsu-positions/

Here Jeff Patterson, a Rigan Machado black belt, explained the same thing but directly and primarily, rather than secondarily while talking about leglocks like Danaher did.

"Brazilian Jiu Jitsu remains an interesting martial art because it is primarily a ground fighting system. Now, BJJ is not the only ground fighting/grappling art in existence but it is rather unique in the sense that it promotes position over submission and attacks. What does this mean? The art seeks to establish and dominate with certain positions in order to put the BJJ fighter into the best position to submit or strike an opponent. Similarly, the practitioner will also invest a great deal of time learning to escape from Jiu Jitsu positions so as not to fall victim to them."

 

[Ivaylo Ivanov]

I'm not a Judo historian but I don't believe there is any separate ruleset for Kosen Judo. IIRC it was just a school of Judo that included more extensive newaza training than "standard" international rules Judo. The reason I mentioned it was because that instructor once told me his Judo BB was in "Kosen Judo," implying he wasn't just a stand up guy before he started BJJ. So the "Kosen" clarifier meant something to him.

But as I've said I think style vs. style debates are pointless. All I know is that guy was very very good at both TDs and BJJ-style newaza and could seamlessly transition between those phases, which is not common among single ruleset specialists. He also didn't have any of the "bad" Judo habits like turtling when being taken down (the one or two times I actually took him down, he instantly went to butterfly sweep during the scramble). He never pulled guard and didn't go for rolling uchi mata style throws.

There is no Kosen Judo institution, that awards BB in Kosen Judo.

Kosen Judo is a regular Judo, with extra time for ground game.

I have competed in several such tournaments in Japan, won all my matches by pins:
That would be the best way to win, besides scoring an ippon by a clean throw (opponent lands square on his back, while you are standing.

Why?

Because when skilled players are involved, it is hard to score a clean throw and the time limit for matches is sometimes 3 min- not enough time to take someone down, pass and submit.

Scramble-pass-pin for 20 secs to win is the easiest way to go in Kosen.

Players dont really pull guards in Kosen, because if caught midair, their opponent can readjust and throw for ippon.

Happens in matches, with big weight difference (no weight categories in Kosen).

Im 4th from the right:

 

[ChickenBrother]

There is no Kosen Judo institution, that awards BB in Kosen Judo.

Kosen Judo is a regular Judo, with extra time for ground game.

I have competed in several such tournaments in Japan, won all my matches by pins:
That would be the best way to win, besides scoring an ippon by a clean throw (opponent lands square on his back, while you are standing.

Why?

Because when skilled players are involved, it is hard to score a clean throw and the time limit for matches is sometimes 3 min- not enough time to take someone down, pass and submit.

Scramble-pass-pin for 20 secs to win is the easiest way to go in Kosen.

Players dont really pull guards in Kosen, because if caught midair, their opponent can readjust and throw for ippon.

Happens in matches, with big weight difference (no weight categories in Kosen).

Im 4th from the right:

Very cool. I can only assume the guy meant "Kosen lineage" from having trained in Japan but I can't speak for him. His name is Rene Dreifuss and he used to teach a "BJJ for MMA" class out of Evolution Muay Thai in NYC with Brandon Levi (another great instructor). I trained with him for about a year before I moved away for a new job around 2012 when he started his own school "Radical MMA."

I understand he had been BJJ purple for a very long time and I suspect there may have been some politics due to him focusing on nogi and MMA, but his newaza was super technical and I saw him tap visiting BJJ BB's in nogi. He was promoted to brown while I was there and I believe someone gave him black shortly thereafter. He and some of his guys used to fight in the UCL fight league before MMA was legalized in NYC. Super good dude and excellent teacher. He would only let you train MMA if you were at least BJJ blue but the core BJJ class was the only one I've come across that was true "BJJ for MMA," not "start from knees and pull guard BJJ," i.e. every roll started on feet and progressed like an MMA match but without strikes, although he would point out positions where strikes would be in play. His grappling philosophy was that if you pull guard, you're giving up the initiative.

I have competed in several such tournaments in Japan, won all my matches by pins:
That would be the best way to win, besides scoring an ippon by a clean throw (opponent lands square on his back, while you are standing.

Why?

Because when skilled players are involved, it is hard to score a clean throw and the time limit for matches is sometimes 3 min- not enough time to take someone down, pass and submit.

Scramble-pass-pin for 20 secs to win is the easiest way to go in Kosen.

Players dont really pull guards in Kosen, because if caught midair, their opponent can readjust and throw for ippon.

I haven't focused on Judo for a long time, but competing in the U.S. in the 90's I think they gave you a little more time on the ground than they do now. Coming from a wrestling background my game was to wrestle with gi grips and go for a pin. But failing that, I'd try to force ezekiel from inside closed guard and/or arm triangle into side control if it was there. That game could work on guys up to Shodan but as mentioned, I remember hitting a brick wall vs. guys around nidan where "invisible Judo" made them just too good at reading and anticipating your movement on the feet with gi grips. Against those guys, it was a foregone conclusion I was about to log some frequent flyer miles.

 

[Ivaylo Ivanov]

Very cool. I can only assume the guy meant "Kosen lineage" from having trained in Japan but I can't speak for him. His name is Rene Dreifuss and he used to teach a "BJJ for MMA" class out of Evolution Muay Thai in NYC with Brandon Levi (another great instructor). I trained with him for about a year before I moved away for a new job around 2012 when he started his own school "Radical MMA."

I understand he had been BJJ purple for a very long time and I suspect there may have been some politics due to him focusing on nogi and MMA, but his newaza was super technical and I saw him tap visiting BJJ BB's in nogi. He was promoted to brown while I was there and I believe someone gave him black shortly thereafter. He and some of his guys used to fight in the UCL fight league before MMA was legalized in NYC. Super good dude and excellent teacher. He would only let you train MMA if you were at least BJJ blue but the core BJJ class was the only one I've come across that was true "BJJ for MMA," not "start from knees and pull guard BJJ," i.e. every roll started on feet and progressed like an MMA match but without strikes, although he would point out positions where strikes would be in play. His grappling philosophy was that if you pull guard, you're giving up the initiative.




I haven't focused on Judo for a long time, but competing in the U.S. in the 90's I think they gave you a little more time on the ground than they do now. Coming from a wrestling background my game was to wrestle with gi grips and go for a pin. But failing that, I'd try to force ezekiel from inside closed guard and/or arm triangle into side control if it was there. That game could work on guys up to Shodan but as mentioned, I remember hitting a brick wall vs. guys around nidan where "invisible Judo" made them just too good at reading and anticipating your movement on the feet with gi grips. Against those guys, it was a foregone conclusion I was about to log some frequent flyer miles.

There is no Kosen lineage.

Kosen is just a rule set, allowing extended time on the ground.

No extra techniques, no extra rules.

Its just Judo ground work.

They keep a few events a year, mainly in Kansai area (Kyoto, Kobe and Osaka), where I use to live.

The organizer is a very old guy, that I keep contact with (in case someone needs introduction).
But nothing special or mystical, as I have seen people presenting it around here.

Kinda like the myths about everything, MA related, including training BJJ in Brazil (I got my BB after 2 years of training with the top Gracie Barra competitors of Goias state).
My coach got 2nd place at ADCC Brazil and we had quite a few MMA guys and girls, including UFC athletes.

My Judo coach in Brazil was 2 times Olympian as well.

I ended up teaching Sambo and Wrestling to competitors in both places.

There are a lot of people out there, talking tall tales and creating unnecessary mythology around certain characters.

Im not about that.

I see it and say it like it is.

Kosen Judo is nothing special, even if you train with the only team, known for Kosen Judo- the Kyoto University Judo competitors.

And they are not really winning Judo tournaments.

 

[mataleaos]

I didn't get far in Judo but I can understand his point. I had very pretty throws in drilling but in randori I could never throw anyone for shit. Also to me at least, every stand up art I've tried (Judo tachiwaza, boxing, and Muay Thai) I've found to feel much more overwhelming and complex than BJJ. I've got pushing 2 decades in BJJ and I'm a lifer. I wouldn't trade BJJ for anything. But on the feet I've always felt that there were so many more variables to account for. I've always felt like having to move more and account for the other person's movement adds a ton of complexity. There may be less 'moves' or 'techniques' than can be done, but I don't think that alone is the measure of complexity.

 

[mataleaos]

Yup. I don't do judo for the same reason I don't do DH mountain biking or heroin: they're lots of fun, but I don't have a death wish.

I'm fucking dead at this. Yea I'd love to do some Judo but at my age I don't feel comfortable going back to it. I'm busted enough as it is.

 

[ChickenBrother]

There is no Kosen lineage.

Kosen is just a rule set, allowing extended time on the ground.

No extra techniques, no extra rules.

Its just Judo ground work.

They keep a few events a year, mainly in Kansai area (Kyoto, Kobe and Osaka), where I use to live.

The organizer is a very old guy, that I keep contact with (in case someone needs introduction).
But nothing special or mystical, as I have seen people presenting it around here.

Kinda like the myths about everything, MA related, including training BJJ in Brazil (I got my BB after 2 years of training with the top Gracie Barra competitors of Goias state).
My coach got 2nd place at ADCC Brazil and we had quite a few MMA guys and girls, including UFC athletes.

My Judo coach in Brazil was 2 times Olympian as well.

I ended up teaching Sambo and Wrestling to competitors in both places.

There are a lot of people out there, talking tall tales and creating unnecessary mythology around certain characters.

Im not about that.

I see it and say it like it is.

Kosen Judo is nothing special, even if you train with the only team, known for Kosen Judo- the Kyoto University Judo competitors.

And they are not really winning Judo tournaments.

I don't think I said Kosen Judo was anything special. In fact I said I'm not a Kosen guy, have never competed in a Kosen tournament and can't speak on behalf of anyone re. Kosen. I competed in regular USJA and USJI Judo tournaments in the 90's including two senior and collegiate nationals, and since then have trained, cross-trained or competed (off and on) in every other grappling style I've had access to including greco-roman and freestyle wrestling, BJJ and Sambo. But I have a folkstyle base. And I've always viewed competition in any single ruleset as just a vehicle to appreciate different aspects of grappling.

The guy I mentioned was a BJJ and MMA guy who claimed a "Kosen Judo" BB. He had a very complete grappling game but whether that was attributable to "Kosen Judo," BJJ, MMA or a combination of those, I don't know and I don't care. As I've said, style vs. style debates are pointless because it's all grappling to me. If someone opened a gym in my area claiming a style of "reverse touchbutt in the park" and he taught TDs from the feet into sub-based newaza without pulling guard, giving up control after the throw or turtling, and all at nidan+ skill equivalent, I'd proudly call myself a student of his.

 

[Ivaylo Ivanov]

I don't think I said Kosen Judo was anything special. In fact I said I'm not a Kosen guy, have never competed in a Kosen tournament and can't speak on behalf of anyone re. Kosen. I competed in regular USJA and USJI Judo tournaments in the 90's and since then have trained, cross-trained or competed (off and on) in every other grappling style I've had access to including greco-roman and freestyle wrestling, BJJ and Sambo. But I have a folkstyle base. And I've always viewed competition in any single ruleset as just a vehicle to appreciate different aspects of grappling.

The guy I mentioned was a BJJ and MMA guy who claimed a "Kosen Judo" BB. He had a very complete grappling game but whether that was attributable to "Kosen Judo," BJJ, MMA or a combination of the three, I don't know and I don't care. As I've said, style vs. style debates are pointless because it's all grappling to me. If someone opened a gym in my area claiming a style of "reverse touchbutt in the park" and he taught TDs from the feet into sub-based newaza without pulling guard, giving up control after the throw or turtling, and all at nidan+ skill equivalent, I'd proudly call myself a student of his.

Im not saying you did.

Im saying it doesnt exist, so most probably it was a made up statement.

Like Muay Thai BB...

 

[ChickenBrother]

Im not saying you did.

Im saying it doesnt exist, so most probably it was a made up statement.

Like Muay Thai BB...

I do believe he had a Judo BB as he was well versed in Judo throws, practices and terminology. He's an American guy who lived and trained in Japan for years, spoke fluent Japanese and had a Japanese wife. He mentioned Kosen after my first trial class when I told him I had a Judo background. FWIW he often told me BJJ newaza was superior to Judo newaza (I concur), and yelled at me many times for going to scarf hold after a throw instead of regular side control - said I was "doing outdated Judo."

But I don't want to speak for him as it's been years since we've been in touch. I posted his name above so if he or any of his current students are on this forum and would care to clarify, that would be interesting. I had a great experience training under him.

 

[Ivaylo Ivanov]

I do believe he had a Judo BB as he was well versed in Judo throws, practices and terminology. He's an American guy who lived and trained in Japan for years, spoke fluent Japanese and had a Japanese wife. He mentioned Kosen after my first trial class when I told him I had a Judo background. FWIW he often told me BJJ newaza was superior to Judo newaza (I concur), and yelled at me many times for going to scarf hold after a throw instead of regular side control - said I was "doing outdated Judo."

But I don't want to speak for him as it's been years since we've been in touch. I posted his name above so if he or any of his current students are on this forum and would care to clarify, that would be interesting. I had a great experience training under him.

All Judo BB certificates in Japan are issued directly from Kodokan and come with Japanese Judo Federation number, and Kodokan ID card.

It is possible he got a Judo BB, but not possible to be a Kosen Judo BB or a BB from Kosen Judo lineage, because no such thing exists.

As for preferences for pins, everyone has his own methods.
Im not going to discuss someone else's educational methodology.

If it works for him, great!

BUT, not teaching Kesagatame, because its "outdated", sounds like traditional BJJ coach mentality.
You can find A LOT of similar statement threads on F12, from the era, before Barnett got Lister with Kesagatame, same as the threads looking down on leglocks, before DDS came on the scene.

There is always a trend in BJJ, that brings some old school position, sub, strategy and after some adjustments, it becomes all the rage in BJJ.

Before that, people would be shitting on that same position, sub, whatever, for years.

Recently, Danaher is talking about takedowns and wrestling, so guess what will people be doing over the next 5 years

By then , we will make a full circle and forget about flying triangles and whatnot.

Then someone will reinvent them again...

Once you pass the 20 years mark in grappling sports, this type of discussions will be already super boring, especially when you have to talk with some triggered blue belt taliban.

Hence, the reason a lot of people dont even visit Sherdog anymore.

If you are running your own gym or association, the last thing on your mind would be to enter in explanation mode to people, that dont even go by their own name online

Its all on social medias now- you can see who are you talking to, what has he accomplished and if its even worth talking to.

 

[AnotherOldGuy]

I have to say Judo is the only live resistance grappling art where I've had the instructors start off teaching by talking about how ugly and ineffective other grappling styles are. I've seen it happen multiple times. It might just be a US Judo thing, but it's definitely noticeable.

Funny thing is wrestlers seem to have none of this whatsoever. In BJJ, I've only ever seen it from the Gracies as a marketing tool. It's not widely believed.

Sounds like an American thing. I've done judo (and wrestling) in Canada, and visited judo clubs in several European countries. I've never heard an instructor (or actually anyone) say that. In fact, when my original judo instructor found out I was wrestling in high school, he had me show some of the techniques to the class.

Kind of a weird attitude for a judo instructor -- in most of the world judoka have been happy to borrow and integrate techniques from other grappling styles ... starting with the founder Kano, who wrote openly about learning techniques from manuals of western wrestling (kata-guruma came from wrestling's fireman's carry for instance).

 

[AnotherOldGuy]

I find it interesting Travis said that, regarding complexity of Judo vs. BJJ. There are a set number of throws in Judo and some are very similar or variants of the same throw. You could spend a lifetime perfecting the mechanics of them though. BJJ has an almost countless number of guards, guard passes, sweeps, and then submissions themselves. So Judo might be a mile wide and a mile deep, but BJJ almost has undefined boundaries, and yet is still a mile deep. You could take 10 years to be a BJJ Black Belt and not be familiar enough to really teach some techniques if it was never part of your game, whereas a Judo Black Belt can generally execute every official Kodokan technique. Judo boundaries seem a little more tidy and defined in terms of technique, everything else is athleticism and strategy.

Stevens is an intense guy, almost Jocko like when he talks about discipline and worth ethic. His fast road to BJJ Black Belt after his success in Olympic Judo seems to be proof of that.

The official way of performing the Kodokan techniques are for gradings. In practice there are many variations for each technique, which all go by the same name. An example that you might understand is that what BJJ calls the kimura, what it calls the americana, and what it calls the omoplata are all officially called ude-garami in judo (some people will add descriptive names to differentiate them, but those names aren't official and vary from place to place). If your grading tester asks for ude-garami you would get a pass for doing any of the three.

There are probably 20 common ways of doing uchi-mata, all of which are called uchi-mata. And yes, the BJJ way of naming is actually a lot more useful -- it gives a lot more information. You telling me your favorite throw is uchi-mata doesn't actually tell me much about how you like to throw.

 

[mataleaos]

The official way of performing the Kodokan techniques are for gradings. In practice there are many variations for each technique, which all go by the same name. An example that you might understand is that what BJJ calls the kimura, what it calls the americana, and what it calls the omoplata are all officially called ude-garami in judo (some people will add descriptive names to differentiate them, but those names aren't official and vary from place to place). If your grading tester asks for ude-garami you would get a pass for doing any of the three.

There are probably 20 common ways of doing uchi-mata, all of which are called uchi-mata. And yes, the BJJ way of naming is actually a lot more useful -- it gives a lot more information. You telling me your favorite throw is uchi-mata doesn't actually tell me much about how you like to throw.

Good point. Uchimata on the close thigh, right up the middle, far thigh, all can be done as hip thrives almost or at mid range or even far range. Ken ken uchimata. The variations for every throw don’t end. The same throw almost never looks exactly the same each time.

 

[ChickenBrother]

BUT, not teaching Kesagatame, because its "outdated", sounds like traditional BJJ coach mentality.
You can find A LOT of similar statement threads on F12, from the era, before Barnett got Lister with Kesagatame, same as the threads looking down on leglocks, before DDS came on the scene.

My thoughts exactly. If there's anything I've learned over the years, it's that any technique can be made to work if you get good enough at it.

There is always a trend in BJJ, that brings some old school position, sub, strategy and after some adjustments, it becomes all the rage in BJJ.

Before that, people would be shitting on that same position, sub, whatever, for years.

Recently, Danaher is talking about takedowns and wrestling, so guess what will people be doing over the next 5 years

By then , we will make a full circle and forget about flying triangles and whatnot.

Then someone will reinvent them again...

Once you pass the 20 years mark in grappling sports, this type of discussions will be already super boring, especially when you have to talk with some triggered blue belt taliban.

Hence, the reason a lot of people dont even visit Sherdog anymore.

Couldn't agree more. Also why I've never followed whatever unicorn move Keenan, Lachlan or Gordon pulled off in their last match.

 

[Ryo]

Guard pulling happened in Kosen all the time. Especially De La Riva. You can see all kinds of guard pulls in Kosen comps going back decades. You can also see all kinds of guard pulls going back to the 1960s Kosen Judo demonstrations.

There is not Kosen Judo BB this is true. But to say that they have not always been their own niche group within Judo would not be correct either. Rules make styles. Lineages that go straight to Kanae Hirata for example are going to have different Judo games than those trained in IJF based clubs.

 

[Ivaylo Ivanov]

Guard pulling happened in Kosen all the time. Especially De La Riva. You can see all kinds of guard pulls in Kosen comps going back decades. You can also see all kinds of guard pulls going back to the 1960s Kosen Judo demonstrations.

There is not Kosen Judo BB this is true. But to say that they have not always been their own niche group within Judo would not be correct either. Rules make styles. Lineages that go straight to Kanae Hirata for example are going to have different Judo games than those trained in IJF based clubs.

How many Kosen comps have you been to?

 

[Ryo]

How many Kosen comps have you been to?

There are footage of Kosen comps from the 60s 70s and 80a where guard pulling is all over the place. Go to YouTube. It's also all over demonstrations by the Kosen master like Kanae Hirata.

 

[Ivaylo Ivanov]

What does that have to do with anything? There are footage of Kosen comps from the 60s 70s and 80a where guard pulling is all over the place. Go to YouTube. It's also all over demonstrations by the Kosen master like Kanae Hirata.

You have never seen entire Kosen event live, let alone competing in it or even read the rule set.

You are talking to a guy, who medalled several times in Kosen tournaments, has direct connection and personal friendship with the only group in Japan, organizing such events and preserving the tradition, and you have the nerve

You are a flaming example of what I wrote above, regarding people in desperate need of myths.

Here, let me break it down to ya:

Currently, about %40 of the competitors in Kosen tournaments are BJJ players.

Kosen events are team tournaments.

I have been part of several teams: Suita BJJ, Daishin Judo Club and my own team Yagadome.

To participate in Kosen events, one must be a part of a team.
Each team can bring as many competitors they want.
When going against another team, each team presents 5 players.
So, good strategy is to bring 8-10 players to the competition and always keep a few guys fresh, to go against the next team (you can replace players and order of their appearance).

The big and experienced competitors are strategically placed at 4th and 5th spot.

The team that has more wins is declared a winner and proceeds into the tournament.
*Yes, this is where Quintet got the idea from.

Yes, some people do pull guard. Mostly the pure BJJ players, because a lot of BJJ guys in Japan are also Judo BB (Shinya Aoki is not only a Judo and BJJ BB, but also a Sambo national champ and I personally know more than 10 guys like this).

Why it is not a viable strategy to pull guard?

1. Rules.
Judo ground work happens only when both players are in ground position.
Meaning, if you pull guard and the other guy is standing, ref will stop the match and restart from standing position.
So, if the opponent is not willing to go to the ground or disengages, match is stopped and both competitors start from standing.

2. There is no time.
The Kosen matches time vary from 3 to 5 min, depending on the age of the competitors and the tine is agreed between both competitors before the match. Usually,
older guys want shorter matches, because of age and...smoking (about %70 of the old school Judo guys also smoke a pack a day).

So, pulling guard and shooting for a sub or reversal and pin/sub (its Judo rules: sweeps and reversal dont count for shit) in under 3 min is not a sound strategy.

So, thats that, regarding guard pulling.

As for lineage, let me tell you what the Judo world is in Japan:

The only teams that go back are the university teams.
Simply, because they are institutions and not a family dojos. Meaning, they will have subsidies, constant flow of fresh prospects, who will represent the university in all events, bring back medals and one day will become coaches, if they want.

Similar to wrestling in USA.

The big dogs are:
- Kokushikan university, famous for the most hardcore competitors (both Judo and Wrestling).
My daughter was training wrestling there.
Ishii went to Kokushikan HS and Uni, even if he is from Osaka (his father, a good friend of mine and a great Judo coach, made him go to Kokushikan).
- Tokyo university, where a lot of the national team players came from.
- Ryotokuji university, where currently my friend Daniel Dichev (BUL) is working in the Judo department and prepares for the Olympics next year.

Now, the only Kosen related team is the Kyoto university and they are not top ranked.

I have trained with those guys, I have competed against those guys, I have drank beers afterwards and Im friend with a lot of them, including their coach.

There is no lineage of Kosen.

There is a tradition, specific for Kansai region, where I use to live, that is kept alive and thats it.

You can believe whatever fairytale you want and pray to mythical creatures.

I dont care

 

[Kforcer]

You have never seen entire Kosen event live, let alone competing in it or even read the rule set.

You are talking to a guy, who medalled several times in Kosen tournaments, has direct connection and personal friendship with the only group in Japan, organizing such events and preserving the tradition, and you have the nerve

You are a flaming example of what I wrote above, regarding people in desperate need of myths.

Here, let me break it down to ya:

Currently, about %40 of the competitors in Kosen tournaments are BJJ players.

Kosen events are team tournaments.

I have been part of several teams: Suita BJJ, Daishin Judo Club and my own team Yagadome.

To participate in Kosen events, one must be a part of a team.
Each team can bring as many competitors they want.
When going against another team, each team presents 5 players.
So, good strategy is to bring 8-10 players to the competition and always keep a few guys fresh, to go against the next team (you can replace players and order of their appearance).

The big and experienced competitors are strategically placed at 4th and 5th spot.

The team that has more wins is declared a winner and proceeds into the tournament.
*Yes, this is where Quintet got the idea from.

Yes, some people do pull guard. Mostly the pure BJJ players, because a lot of BJJ guys in Japan are also Judo BB (Shinya Aoki is not only a Judo and BJJ BB, but also a Sambo national champ and I personally know more than 10 guys like this).

Why it is not a viable strategy to pull guard?

1. Rules.
Judo ground work happens only when both players are in ground position.
Meaning, if you pull guard and the other guy is standing, ref will stop the match and restart from standing position.
So, if the opponent is not willing to go to the ground or disengages, match is stopped and both competitors start from standing.

2. There is no time.
The Kosen matches time vary from 3 to 5 min, depending on the age of the competitors and the tine is agreed between both competitors before the match. Usually,
older guys want shorter matches, because of age and...smoking (about %70 of the old school Judo guys also smoke a pack a day).

So, pulling guard and shooting for a sub or reversal and pin/sub (its Judo rules: sweeps and reversal dont count for shit) in under 3 min is not a sound strategy.

So, thats that, regarding guard pulling.

As for lineage, let me tell you what the Judo world is in Japan:

The only teams that go back are the university teams.
Simply, because they are institutions and not a family dojos. Meaning, they will have subsidies, constant flow of fresh prospects, who will represent the university in all events, bring back medals and one day will become coaches, if they want.

Similar to wrestling in USA.

The big dogs are:
- Kokushikan university, famous for the most hardcore competitors (both Judo and Wrestling).
My daughter was training wrestling there.
Ishii went to Kokushikan HS and Uni, even if he is from Osaka (his father, a good friend of mine and a great Judo coach, made him go to Kokushikan).
- Tokyo university, where a lot of the national team players came from.
- Ryotokuji university, where currently my friend Daniel Dichev (BUL) is working in the Judo department and prepares for the Olympics next year.

Now, the only Kosen related team is the Kyoto university and they are not top ranked.

I have trained with those guys, I have competed against those guys, I have drank beers afterwards and Im friend with a lot of them, including their coach.

There is no lineage of Kosen.

There is a tradition, specific for Kansai region, where I use to live, that is kept alive and thats it.

You can believe whatever fairytale you want and pray to mythical creatures.

I dont care

I don't think Ryo is discounting your experience, he's just noting that if you watch videos of Kosen judo from the 60's to the 80's, you do see a good deal of guard-pulling and also a lot of advanced ground technique, including stuff like the spiral guard which a lot of people view as relatively recent innovations. You also have guys like Masahiko Kimura, Yuki Nakai or Hirata that had a special attachment to and pride in something called "Kosen judo", which suggests a tradition and a style, if an informal one.

For example, there might be an official "Combat Wrestling style", but there is at least an informal approach of dynamic, aggressive grappling that emphasizes takedowns, throws and standing submission entries along with fast-paced action on the ground. Or you could say, sort of along those lines, that there is a "UWF style" preserved, albeit perhaps somewhat informally, in the styles of people ranging from Josh Barnett to Takenori Sato or Shunichi Shimizu who were influenced by the format and the approach to combat associated with it.

Yuki Nakai did say that the best grappler he ever rolled with was his Kosen judo instructor, which suggests to me a special set of skills and techniques based on the format he operated within.

So even if there is an absence of an official lineage, I don't think it is contrary to your experience to reference a tradition and skill-sets that evolved through that tradition.

 

[Ryo]

You have never seen entire Kosen event live, let alone competing in it or even read the rule set.

You are talking to a guy, who medalled several times in Kosen tournaments, has direct connection and personal friendship with the only group in Japan, organizing such events and preserving the tradition, and you have the nerve

You are a flaming example of what I wrote above, regarding people in desperate need of myths.

Here, let me break it down to ya:

Currently, about %40 of the competitors in Kosen tournaments are BJJ players.

Kosen events are team tournaments.

I have been part of several teams: Suita BJJ, Daishin Judo Club and my own team Yagadome.

To participate in Kosen events, one must be a part of a team.
Each team can bring as many competitors they want.
When going against another team, each team presents 5 players.
So, good strategy is to bring 8-10 players to the competition and always keep a few guys fresh, to go against the next team (you can replace players and order of their appearance).

The big and experienced competitors are strategically placed at 4th and 5th spot.

The team that has more wins is declared a winner and proceeds into the tournament.
*Yes, this is where Quintet got the idea from.

Yes, some people do pull guard. Mostly the pure BJJ players, because a lot of BJJ guys in Japan are also Judo BB (Shinya Aoki is not only a Judo and BJJ BB, but also a Sambo national champ and I personally know more than 10 guys like this).

Why it is not a viable strategy to pull guard?

1. Rules.
Judo ground work happens only when both players are in ground position.
Meaning, if you pull guard and the other guy is standing, ref will stop the match and restart from standing position.
So, if the opponent is not willing to go to the ground or disengages, match is stopped and both competitors start from standing.

2. There is no time.
The Kosen matches time vary from 3 to 5 min, depending on the age of the competitors and the tine is agreed between both competitors before the match. Usually,
older guys want shorter matches, because of age and...smoking (about %70 of the old school Judo guys also smoke a pack a day).

So, pulling guard and shooting for a sub or reversal and pin/sub (its Judo rules: sweeps and reversal dont count for shit) in under 3 min is not a sound strategy.

So, thats that, regarding guard pulling.

As for lineage, let me tell you what the Judo world is in Japan:

The only teams that go back are the university teams.
Simply, because they are institutions and not a family dojos. Meaning, they will have subsidies, constant flow of fresh prospects, who will represent the university in all events, bring back medals and one day will become coaches, if they want.

Similar to wrestling in USA.

The big dogs are:
- Kokushikan university, famous for the most hardcore competitors (both Judo and Wrestling).
My daughter was training wrestling there.
Ishii went to Kokushikan HS and Uni, even if he is from Osaka (his father, a good friend of mine and a great Judo coach, made him go to Kokushikan).
- Tokyo university, where a lot of the national team players came from.
- Ryotokuji university, where currently my friend Daniel Dichev (BUL) is working in the Judo department and prepares for the Olympics next year.

Now, the only Kosen related team is the Kyoto university and they are not top ranked.

I have trained with those guys, I have competed against those guys, I have drank beers afterwards and Im friend with a lot of them, including their coach.

There is no lineage of Kosen.

There is a tradition, specific for Kansai region, where I use to live, that is kept alive and thats it.

You can believe whatever fairytale you want and pray to mythical creatures.

I dont care

I dont care what your opinion is at all either. You can set there and spew all the the things you have done and experienced and that's fine. I dont know you, so I'm not gonna waste my time with that. Again, it is very easy to go to YouTube and watch Kosen Judo matches from the past. Perhaps they have different rules then but there is NO DOUBT that guard pulling happened constantly. You can even see De la Riva all over the place. You can also see the masters from the golden age demonstrate guard pulling over and over. I have also talked to Koji Komuro personally about what Kosen is and is not. I trust his opinion more than I trust yours. You're trying to say one thing and we documented evidence we can see for ourselves on the other hand. I'll go with that. Think whatever you want. I dont care.