Traditional Karate guard vs Boxing guard

[Deleted member 466273]

Also MT, and Boxing wear gloves. They affects how they defend. Boxing also cannot clinch and pound, so no need to emphasize that in your guard. MT can clinch, but gloves limit how many holds you have.

Still, there are pros and cons to all guards and not easy to settle on one over the other. I have been head kicked with the Karate guard. A boxing guard would have protected my jaw but not the top of my head or parts of my chest.

 

[MadSquabbles500]

Still, there are pros and cons to all guards and not easy to settle on one over the other. I have been head kicked with the Karate guard. A boxing guard would have protected my jaw but not the top of my head or parts of my chest.

They all have their pros and cons, but each ruleset is different and will lend itself to one of the other over the other choices.

 

[Jimmy Jazz]

I doubt original Okinawan sparring rules were Kyokushin format.

close to it and def not point sparring. kyokushin comes from goju ryu so why would it be surprising?

 

[Deleted member 466273]

close to it and def not point sparring. kyokushin comes from goju ryu so why would it be surprising?

Because Mas Oyama created the full contact format in opposition to the point fighting culture, and labelled Kyokushin the strongest Karate style. Goju is not a full contact style historically. It would make zero sense for him to make that statement if they already sparred that way in Okinawa, since he based it off his style being full contact, separating it from the rest.

 

[Jimmy Jazz]

Because Mas Oyama created the full contact format in opposition to the point fighting culture, and labelled Kyokushin the strongest Karate style. Goju is not a full contact style historically. It would make zero sense for him to make that statement if they already sparred that way in Okinawa, since he based it off his style being full contact, separating it from the rest.

but they do the same conditioning, the techniques are the same, and the no shots to the face is the same.

 

[Inquisitus]

Are you talking about this?

http://tanzadeh.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/04/Shitoryu-Karate-by-Tanzadeh-023.jpg

If so, not sure why we did it but it came from kata and influenced kihon.

Primary reason was to maintain balance and may be the karate way to ensure you stayed in your stance as a beginner. Similar to how boxing uses rubber bands at the ankles. I'm just guessing the last bit.

Also, Okinawan Goju apparently had irikumi, which is where the contact sparring came from. Shotokan (the other precursor of Kyokushin), had the point sparring format you see today.

Bluntly speaking, karate was being learned by young men in college pre war so controlled sparring meant something different than what it means today. Point sparring itself came from the youngins wanting to test their technique. There's a story of a senior JKA instructor sucking badly then focusing on sparring and getting respect. I think it was Oyama who told that story.

 

[Kframe]

I doubt original Okinawan sparring rules were Kyokushin format.

You got any proof to back your statements?

 

[shinkyoku]

I doubt original Okinawan sparring rules were Kyokushin format.

the "point system" of shotokan and wkf originated around ww2 (from kendo practitioners switching to karate and modifying their kendo rules to compete. "first hit wins" makes more sense with swords than with fists) and was refined into its current form after ww2, and is by no means the only system out there.
There are dozens of rule systems for karate. okinawan styles tend to use some version of bogu karate -although kyokushin type "knockdown rules" have been adopted by, and are very popular in, many okinawan traditional styles nowdays.

Oh, and that guard is developed for point karate. it is not very traditional, and far from the only guard used.

 

[Deleted member 466273]

but they do the same conditioning, the techniques are the same, and the no shots to the face is the same.

But did they do full contact sparring. Show me Okinawan full contact sparring references before Kyokushin. And no, the Shotokan guys briefly experimenting with protectors and stuff is not included (they dropped it right away due to injuries)

 

[Deleted member 466273]

The traditional Okinawans bogu Kumite is apparently full contact. But it never caught on. Bill Wallace and Joe Lewis trained Shorin Ryu in Okinawa and they never did bogu Kumite. Wallace said that full contact Karate/Kickboxing was his first exposure to full contact and that he was reluctant at first. And Wallace had the same instructor as Lewis.

 

[bobthebuilder]

If the opponent just wanted to grapple, and was fast with good take downs, but represented no threat in the stand up, I would stand differently than if the opponent wanted to take my head off with a round house kick. There is no "optimal" stance for everyone to use against everyone.

 

[Deleted member 466273]

If the opponent just wanted to grapple, and was fast with good take downs, but represented no threat in the stand up, I would stand differently than if the opponent wanted to take my head off with a round house kick. There is no "optimal" stance for everyone to use against everyone.

What if you don't know anything about your opponent.

 

[bobthebuilder]

What if you don't know anything about your opponent.

It would depend how they look to some extent, but I would start in high guard on the outside, feint and test for their their stand up defense and grappling intentions. Their reaction to me getting in and throwing a 1-2 would say a lot. If they slip both punches, then kick me in the ribs then move off to the side in southpaw, I'm keeping my hands high.

 

[Deleted member 466273]

It would depend how they look to some extent, but I would start in high guard on the outside, feint and test for their their stand up defense and grappling intentions. Their reaction to me getting in and throwing a 1-2 would say a lot. If they slip both punches, then kick me in the ribs then move off to the side in southpaw, I'm keeping my hands high.

But high guard is too vague. Do you protect the chin or top of your head?

 

[bobthebuilder]

But high guard is too vague. Do you protect the chin or top of your head?

somewhere in the middle, ready to go higher.

 

[aerius]

What if you don't know anything about your opponent.

Unless the person is a fucking idiot like you are, he will always know something about the opponent.

 

[fluffball]

It's not possible to adequately protect yourself using your arms, so put them in position to prevent a KO. The rest needs to come from your feet and body movement.

 

[insaneshanex]

Can any karate guys explain why we slide our feet? first thing they taught me in boxing after years of karate was to stop sliding my feet.

I did TKD as a kid and I remember being taught specifically not to slide the feet, but to move them quickly and just above the ground. No sliding, but no obvious hopping or jumping either. I guess it's technically a hop, like if you're switching stances for example, but it shouldn't be noticeable to the opponent. I think he mentioned doing it like this because on the street it could trip you up if you get into the habit of sliding.

 

[Hotora86]

As always, it all comes down to the practitioner, not the art (or stance or guard). In MMA people have fought with all kinds of "unorthodox" stances and low guards (Machida, Wonderboy etc.) and have had success using them.

As @fluffball mentioned above, the way you move your whole body (footwork, dodging, leaning, pivots etc.) is way more important than your guard.

Also remember that stances and guards are fluid concepts, they change every time you move or strike so don't get overly attached to them.

Many people (including myself) draw comparisons between fighting and chess. Note that in chess you don't strive to build and maintain a certain pawn structure for the entire game - instead you learn general principles and tactics of correct placement of pawns and pieces and constantly react to what the opponent is doing. Fighting is very similar.

 

[MaxMMA]

I personally use both. If im at an outside range i use a karate stance. If the fight closes past kicking range I try to switch quickly to a boxing/wrestling stance. Tall enough to throw hands but low enough to sprawl, shoot, and flow into the clinch.