Toronto BJJ Gym Pricing

Fair enough and I would agree with your analysis above, but the point here is about being able to know the price before trying out the product if you would like to. Therefore if you know the product is out of your price range - you do not have to waste your time/resources trying it out.

The fact that value is determined by quality of instruction and customer satisfaction does not change the notion that for some - that value placed is to high of a cost for them to pay for BJJ and they will go elsewhere - why do they then have to still check out the gym if in the end it would have been to expensive for them anyway - knowing that ahead of time would save time/money. While the value determination may differ - the point remains - "why would I go and test drive a car that I know I can not afford"? is still a proper analogy to "why would I go and test a gym that I know I can not afford"? If I know the price will be to high for the budget - regardless of the quality - I still can not afford it.

I would place a high value on training at Marcelo Garcia's gym - but I simply can not afford it. Marcelo puts his prices up - readily avaliable for everyone to see and decide if they can pay that price or not. Therefore, I do not have to go out of my way to try it out just to find out after that I can not afford the price. I get why other gyms do not do this from a business perspective as mentioned but at the same time understand why a consumer may get fusturated in not being able to know a price before trying it out.

I have no problem with gyms charging whatever they want (I will not be one of those people ripping on gyms for high prices) - but there is nothing wrong with a consumer who would like to know the price before spending the time/money to check it out. There is nothing wrong with openly discussing on an open forum about the various gyms and compairing rates, etc..

The reason the prices can't be quoted isn't to prevent people from budgeting. I could go into the fact that most people's true budget is much higher than they might initially think, but that is another can of worms so I will just simply set it aside at this point. For the sake of this argument here, I will simply accept that a person's initially quoted budget is all that he can possibly afford.

Here is what happens in reality:

People are usually scared to check out a gym in the first place, so they won't go check out two schools that are within budget. Say a person's budget is $150. Three schools are $175, $150, $100.

You are saying that this person should rule out $175 because it is not affordable. Then that person should check out $150 and $100 because they are. That would make sense, but it is not how people act in reality.

What I am saying is that this person will in reality just go straight to the $100 place, not even bother with the other two, and think that he saved $50-$75 when really he might be training at a more substandard place. The empirical fact is that most people operate this way, and it can be easily proven if you are a school owner who actually keeps track of these stats month by month.

Most of the people arguing for prices to be posted have never actually looked at the empirical data as a school owner. Try it sometime. Post your prices that are higher than your immediate competitors straight up and see how many potential students you convert to signed up students. Do that for six months and track it. Then take your prices down and do that for another six months. Track that number too. Try to keep the other variables the same.

If people acted rationally like the price posting proponents claim, the numbers should be about the same. Your price quote over the phone should only rule out people who truly cannot afford it no matter what. Those people would never sign up anyway since it is completely unaffordable, so even if they came in for a free trial without prices posted they would not convert to signed up students. You may have a lower conversion percentage, but the absolute numbers should be comparable.

Of course, I can tell you from personal empirical experience that these numbers will not be the same. People do not act rationally this way as a whole. You will have significantly less students signing up if you post the prices straight up. Potential students will jump straight to the lowest priced place and not even bother trying you out.

Regardless of how you theorize how people investigating schools should behave, they behave in the very predictable, empirically measurable way I have described. I have seen it happen again and again across multiple schools. It is just how it is. Trying to rationalize otherwise is like arguing that heavier things should fall faster. No matter how much sense that seems to make theoretically, it is empirically proven by the laws of physics to not be the case.

The challenge is to try it both ways and actually measure the results. You will see that not posting the prices gets you significantly more students signing up. That directly contradicts the fact that potential students are able to, on the whole, evaluate gyms fairly when given the prices up front. Their evaluation method changes dramatically if they try it first. It is not a budget thing.
 
FYI:

I don't want to create drama (reason why I didn't list the name of the school nor my location at the start of this thread) and I acknowledge that Lin's MA is a great school - opening 7 days a week. However, I am a graduate student living on a tight budget; not to mention the fact that I still have undergrad debts. Spending 10+ hours/week training is in itself a large investment, and paying 180$ a month would really take a toll on my life at this point (especially since I might not have scholarship next year).

I am passionate about jujitsu, and I'm willing to spend all my spare time training. Unfortunately, there are other things I need to juggle in my life. Having a finical burden of paying 180$ per month might just be too much for me personally.
 
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I trained at LIN MA the last couple of years, it HAD amazing grapplers to train with, but ever since the recent move to Team Loyd, the "so-called" black belt kicked out all of his top guys, because those guys were embarrassing the master on the mat, and didn't want to ruin his business. To be honest for that price there should be an MMA program, and a sick Thai program. Instead they have a white belt teaching the thai boxing, and has no MMA program!! You don't believe me ??? Go waste your money there. I would go to the new gym around that area Action Reaction.
 
I trained at LIN MA the last couple of years, it HAD amazing grapplers to train with, but ever since the recent move to Team Loyd, the "so-called" black belt kicked out all of his top guys, because those guys were embarrassing the master on the mat, and didn't want to ruin his business. To be honest for that price there should be an MMA program, and a sick Thai program. Instead they have a white belt teaching the thai boxing, and has no MMA program!! You don't believe me ??? Go waste your money there. I would go to the new gym around that area Action Reaction.

Action and Reaction MMA is going to be an amazing club. I was there today with a few memebers from my team to train with everyone. Fernando Zulick is a great person/professor and has helped BJJ grow a lot in Ontario. Plus the facility is looking top knotch and its not even fully completed yet.
 
I trained at LIN MA the last couple of years, it HAD amazing grapplers to train with, but ever since the recent move to Team Loyd, the "so-called" black belt kicked out all of his top guys, because those guys were embarrassing the master on the mat, and didn't want to ruin his business. To be honest for that price there should be an MMA program, and a sick Thai program. Instead they have a white belt teaching the thai boxing, and has no MMA program!! You don't believe me ??? Go waste your money there. I would go to the new gym around that area Action Reaction.

I don't want to believe that what you said about kicking out top guys is true. It's hard for me to imagine that would happen anywhere. Lin is a black belt though so I don't know what you are talking about. It almost seems like you are just promoting Action and Reaction.
ps I am not affiliated nor am I friends with Lin, but this shit just seems too ridiculous.
 
Let me lay some prices out, feel free to correct me if I'm wrong

Toronto BJJ -$180(?) - When I trained here a little over a year ago, the price was $85 for a discounted police/fire/student/government service rate, now, it's gone well up.

Salvosa - Was around $100-125 for unlimited training

Black Devil MMA - $85-100

Open Mat - $180-$250 - for the lowest level package that gets you 2 or 3 training times a week, it's around $180...for unlimited, plus muay thai, it's well over $200


These are only a few I know of, having trained at or gone to scope out a membership. I get the idea of this thread. I like to know before going into a gym or academy, how much I will be paying. Not after you show me how awesome your gym is, before. Again like I said, feel free to correct me if these prices are wrong, AND add the correct rates.
 
BJJ in Toronto really bugs the shit out of me. I think it's pure greed to jack up prices to those levels that most gyms have. The gym owners simply knows that the demand is high and 100 + something dollars per months is really too much. And when you call the gyms too, they pretty much refuse to reveal prices for you as well. They always take your name and number, asking for previous experience and then they get back to you with some bullshit figure. GREED!

I'm currently in Sweden right now and the gym I signed up with charges about 100 CAD per semester ( each sememster is 4 months, the summer semester actually costs less, about 88 $ ). So roughly 300 $ per year (compared to about 1500 $ you would have to pay in Toronto). And it's a legit gym too. A certified black belt instructor, no McDojo'ness going on, they have current champs for smaller promotions, working out at the gym as well.

I'm really terrified to move back to Toronto and knowing that I might not be able to pick-up BJJ, simply cuz I can't afford it. One thing if there are no gyms at a place, but to have them and the pricing is that high?


Greed, remember it's a sin.
 
I'm currently in Sweden right now and the gym I signed up with charges about 100 CAD per semester ( each sememster is 4 months, the summer semester actually costs less, about 88 $ ). So roughly 300 $ per year (compared to about 1500 $ you would have to pay in Toronto). And it's a legit gym too. A certified black belt instructor, no McDojo'ness going on, they have current champs for smaller promotions, working out at the gym as well.

That's an unfair comparison because in Sweden, programs like bjj are subsidized by the government and Sweden has one of the highest income tax rates in the world, almost 50%.
 
There are no trainers in Toronto that could possibly justify charging that amount unless you are getting personal one-on-one training.

What bullshit.
 
That's an unfair comparison because in Sweden, programs like bjj are subsidized by the government and Sweden has one of the highest income tax rates in the world, almost 50%.

No it's not almost 50%, it's 30%.

And yes, I know that sports activities/gyms in Sweden are subsidized by the government, but a friend of mine is doing BJJ at Leo Neves's (gym who's not getting any government funding. Because here in Sweden you have to have the gym open for a year before you can get any funding) and it costs her 190 $ per semester (at Neves's gym, a semester is 6 month). And Neves is a legit black belt for those who happened to be familiar with him. So that brings it a to a total of 380 $ per year. STILL not even close to the BS figures that Toronto gyms are charging per MONTH.


Like I said, GREED.
 
I don't train there but I will say that Toronto rent is super high so the prices are going to be higher for that place.
 
My camp is $99/month, tax included. Striking, Grappling and strength and conditioning program. Can't argue with that for value :)
 
something to consider about pricing at gyms is the frequency you can go and the dollar value on the classes themselves...

when I started at my local gym, the prices were $100/month for unlimited muay thai or boxing, $130/month for unlimited bjj, $165/month for all classes and if you signed a 3 month commitment for all classes, it was $150/month... when I first started, they had muay thai classes both in the evening and afternoon but only bjj in the evening and since my work schedule alternated between afternoons and evenings, I opted to take muay thai only because the amount of classes I would be able to take wouldn't justify the cost for the all classes pass... however, when they started opening bjj classes in the afternoons as well, I decided to sign up for the all classes pass since I would be able to take a lot more classes... even though I would be paying more per month, I would actually be paying significantly less per class because the number of classes I could take more than doubled...

when I was taking muay thai, I paid $112/month (tax included) and 10 classes a month... $11.20 per class... taking all classes now, I pay $165/month (tax included) and take 24 classes a month... $6.88 per class...

so it's important to consider how much you're actually taking away from the classes and how often you can go while taking in the prices...
 
That's a really good point. I always feel bad for the guy paying $165.00/month for a schedule that only allows him 2-3 classes a week.
 
Listen, Toronto is one of the most-expensive cities in Canada. Everything is going to bear the burden of high rent, high costs for the owner, etc. It wouldn't surprise me to hear the rates are very high.

However THIS is notable:

Lin's became a Lloyd Irvin affiliate and I heard they have had the rates increase.

It's not just LI affiliates. LI gives seminars attended by gym owners of all stripes ad affiliations.

At a seminar last year, Lloyd Irvine said a gym run by a purple belt should be charging $125/month for BJJ.

He explained the risk benefit equation by calculating the number of students who would quit over a high price vs the increase in revenue paid by new and retained students. It's a numbers game.

I'm not judging, just reporting the facts as they were passed to me. People gotta make their money. It's your choice whether or not to pay it.

But if you hear your gym owner is going to a Lloyd Irvine seminar, be prepared for a price increase upon their return.
 
He explained the risk benefit equation by calculating the number of students who would quit over a high price vs the increase in revenue paid by new and retained students. It's a numbers game.

This is the price elasticity of demand. It is the derivative of the demand curve function. To maximize revenue (and probably profit here as the costs of BJJ instruction are mostly fixed), you would increase or decrease price until it was equal to 1. There is going to be a sweet spot for any realistic demand curve if you do the calculus.

This kind of stuff only works in the short term though when the number of suppliers (BJJ schools in this case) is limited. In the long term, things eventually even out so that the price is exactly what it should be worth.

I think that in most developed BJJ markets, there isn't much to be gained by manipulating price elasticity of demand. It's only in the newer ones where this works. But eventually more schools open up and the price has to go to its fundamental value.

The thing most new guys just can't accept is that the prices are high because martial arts instruction is fundamentally valuable. The prices are high because learning a good martial art is just worth a lot. Learning some fake McDojo stuff is not worth much, and being some recreational instructor's training dummy is not worth much either. However, a serious professional instructor teaching skills that give a real edge does have a lot of inherent value.

There are always cheap places to train if quality is not an issue. People can train with their buddies in the garage for very little cost. Of course, the problem is that people consider this level of training to not even be worth anything, yet they expect to be provided with a high level of training for roughly the same investment. That just won't happen.
 
Well said Balto.
I've heard people suggest that they just purchase a heavy bag and some mats for their garage, to dodge the fee of a real fight camp...it always cracks me up. "Good luck at competitions", is usually my response to that.
If the gym you're training at has a consistent history of competing, and winning, then we shouldn't devalue that. A Sony flat screen will always be more expensive than an LG...and it should be :)
 
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