Tony Ferguson - top 5 lightweight in UFC history?

[vanillaisis]

Shouldn’t moving up any being successful count for something? I mean, it is sort of an intangible. But like my Sherk example earlier. If you’re a 155er and you move up to 170 and beat Nick Diaz, that should count for something. If you’re BJ and you move up and hold a welterweight title, that should count for something,

Beat a Prime Matt Hughes no less. Matt was on a 6 fight UFC win streak and after the loss to BJ won his next 6 UFC fights.

 

[BFoe]

I’m basing it also on skill level. Conor easily could be the best ever striker at LW, so that also bumps him up a few spots in my eyes. Surely he doesn’t have the resume to be top 5 LW or maybe even not top 10, but skill wise I bet he’s up there

But he can’t and he isn’t. Nate handled his striking just fine, and what’s Nate’s record at LW? 17-9 maybe (I’m just making an educated guess)? I say this as a huge Diaz fan. Nate’s very good, and I love watching him fight, but literally set down his margarita, came in off the beach and blasted full camp Conor’s chin and strangled him.
Conor has a really good resume at FW. Not at LW, and for someone who seems so into opponents and records, I’m surprised you’d rank him that high just because of your feelings about his skill level.

 

[fedoriswar37]

Khabib
4 top 5 victories in RDA (#5), Barboza (#4), Conor (#2), and Poirier (#2)
2 top 10 victories in Healy (#10) and Johnson (#6)

vs

Ferguson
2 top 5 victories in RDA (#2) and Cerrone (#4)
4 top 10 victories in Lee (#7), Barboza (#6), Thompson (#9), and Pettis (#8)

Happy to help.

So more or less Neck and Neck . It really comes down to 1 of them losing in the near future to either eachother or somebody else.

 

[BFoe]

It does and BJ is an ATG p4p fighter but his accolades in the LW division are sorta overrated. His best win at LW is Gomi, the other guys like Joe daddy, Florian, Diego, and uno are overrated.

Joe Daddy for sure. The others may be, I guess it depends on how high someone was rating them. Diego was pretty good back in the day, and Florian was very good as well.

 

[GOATtalks]

But he can’t and he isn’t. Nate handled his striking just fine, and what’s Nate’s record at LW? 17-9 maybe (I’m just making an educated guess)? I say this as a huge Diaz fan. Nate’s very good, and I love watching him fight, but literally set down his margarita, came in off the beach and blasted full camp Conor’s chin and strangled him.
Conor has a really good resume at FW. Not at LW, and for someone who seems so into opponents and records, I’m surprised you’d rank him that high just because of your feelings about his skill level.

You’re right, probably he doesn’t deserve to be that high, but I am a bit of a fanboy. He looked really good against Cowboy, so I’m hoping he comes back big and earns his spot

 

[Taric]

So more or less Neck and Neck .

I'm unsure if some of you have forgotten what math is during isolation.

The UFC organization itself has told you who the better fighters are at each specific moment in time. I recommend listening to the UFC regarding this subject matter.

 

[bjpenngoat]

100%. bj is #1 based on accomplishments as far as titles and being a pioneer but Tony has the absolute best resume ever imo. His wins are just insane. If he beats khabib at some point and gets the belt, its a wrap he is the greatest ever. His resume is just bananas.

 

[BFoe]

You’re right, probably he doesn’t deserve to be that high, but I am a bit of a fanboy. He looked really good against Cowboy, so I’m hoping he comes back big and earns his spot

Haha that’s alright. At least you can admit it
At the end of the day we’re all fans, and sometimes that sways our opinion. Except when it comes to Fedor, in which I’m 100% objective and accurate at all times

 

[GOATtalks]

Lol this guys trying to use a featherweight fight vs Dustin 6 years and 12 fights ago for Dustin as an example of Conors ability at LW

Well Conor also smoked Eddie. Dustin fought Eddie straight after Conor, he won, although not as impressive as Conor did it.

 

[cmw43]

Khabib
4 top 5 victories in RDA (#5), Barboza (#4), Conor (#2), and Poirier (#2)
2 top 10 victories in Healy (#10) and Johnson (#6)

vs

Ferguson
2 top 5 victories in RDA (#2) and Cerrone (#4)
4 top 10 victories in Lee (#7), Barboza (#6), Thompson (#9), and Pettis (#8)

Happy to help.

The numbers don't really tell the whole story though do they, I mean they gave Khabib the belt for beating the #11 guy.

Why is Khabib beating Barboza better than Tony beating Barboza?

 

[ferrisjso]

Jed Meshew at MMAFighting wrote today that Tony Ferguson is a top 5 lightweight in UFC history:

"I believe Tony Ferguson is one of the top-5 lightweights ever and based on his accomplishments, should be regarded as a top-5 P4P fighter in the world right now. In another world could easily have been champion, but in this world, he’s a slow starter who is very hittable and relies on otherworldly cardio and self-belief to outlast opponents, and that doesn’t match up all that well against the mentally strong and offensively potent forces that populate the top of the division right now."

https://www.mmafighting.com/2020/4/...alling-out-and-jon-jones-place-in-mma-history

I can't but wonder how a guy whose signature wins are Anthony Pettis and Rafael dos Anos, with only an interim title win over an infected Kevin Lee and no defenses, is considered top 5. Then you look at the short list of champions and he might have a point:

1. BJ Penn
2. Khabib Nurmagomedov
3. Frankie Edgar
4. Benson Henderson.

5.??? Tony Ferguson? Donald Cerrone? Nate Diaz?

As for top-5 P4P in the world - that is a huge stretch.

Yes because he's clearly better than the best 155'ers of any other era. Won more fights in a row and while title fights are supposed to be worth more in theory in practice when you look at the competition his opponents are usually better than Khabib's(the time he had Pettis was probably the exception).

Defenses are only as valuable as who you defended them against. And the competition wasn't just bad, but usually when we have these sort of competitions the champ did well and we're using that to explain why. That weak competition gave them all they could handle. There's a reason Edgar is at FW right now(and would be at BW if that crowded mess didn't make it indirectly much more difficult) and Bendo isn't even an elite 155'er in Bellator. Tony and Khabib have not been pushed to that point and against the guys they've fought that's superior x times what those guys did.

I don't care how many title defenses they have, the whole point of a title defense is to to face the best guy in your division or close to it. Khabib and Tony haven't been always able to do that given what a hell hole 155 has been with at times four psuedo champs in one org, but the best competition of that era might be cut today(barring Frankie's likeable personality). Big Al or Keven Lee or whoever would have ripped those guys apart.


You know this guy's the dimensions of a MW or a LHW back in the day and he's just lean right?

 

[BFoe]

Well Conor also smoked Eddie. Dustin fought Eddie straight after Conor, he won, although not as impressive as Conor did it.

And neither smoked Eddie in 90 seconds—which is what Shinya Aoki did. But since we’re only talking UFC, Aoki won’t come into play here. Phenomenal LW though.
(To be fair, when they rematched years later in a cage in Bellator, the exact opposite happened)

 

[Taric]

The numbers don't really tell the whole story though do they, I mean they gave Khabib the belt for beating the #11 guy.

Why is Khabib beating Barboza better than Tony beating Barboza?

Do you see me talking about Raging Al anywhere here in regards to Khabib's accomplishments? I do not.

The numbers absolutely tell you the entire story. What doesn't tell you the entire story is just throwing out names without the context of the time period of the fight.

• Edson's greatest victory when Tony defeated him was Bobby Green.
• Edson's greatest victory when Khabib defeated him was either Anthony Pettis or Gilbert Melenez.

That is the entire purpose of rankings. It tracks fighters when they are defeating top end talent.

When Khabib defeated Edson, Barboza had defeated elite talent and was considered a top 5 fighter as a result of him defeating that elite talent. When Tony defeated Edson, Barboza had not yet defeated elite talent and was not considered a top 5 fighter.

This obviously matters.

 

[BFoe]

The numbers don't really tell the whole story though do they, I mean they gave Khabib the belt for beating the #11 guy.

Why is Khabib beating Barboza better than Tony beating Barboza?

The fact that Khabib was fighting Iaquinta wasn’t his fault though.

 

[old school 2]

He is top 5 now.

 

[1moretime!]

Tony beaten the same guy's Khabib have with exception of 2 or 3. Michael Johnson, Connor McGregor, Dustin Poirier. Respectfully, these aren't small numbers I totally understand.

How ever the topic is LW Top 5 P4P and not LW Champion P4P. This is sole reason why Khabibi is Champion and Tony is not he is Contender otherwise it would be vice versa.

Clearly, the man is Top 5 in production. We have statistical facts to support this claim, opinions are meaningless.

You are free to disagree with the notion, please debate the facts, and keep the opinion (s) to oneself it's illusory. This is why;

o·pin·ion
noun

1. a view or judgment formed about something, not necessarily based on fact or knowledge.

Here are the Facts.

 

[cmw43]

Do you see me talking about Raging Al anywhere here in regards to Khabib's accomplishments? I do not.

The numbers absolutely tell you the entire story. What doesn't tell you the entire story is just throwing out names without the context of the time period of the fight.

• Edson's greatest victory when Tony defeated him was Bobby Green.
• Edson's greatest victory when Khabib defeated him was either Anthony Pettis or Gilbert Melenez.

That is the entire purpose of rankings. It tracks fighters when they are defeating top end talent.

When Khabib defeated Edson, Barboza had defeated elite talent and was considered a top 5 fighter as a result of him defeating that elite talent. When Tony defeated Edson, Barboza had not yet defeated elite talent and was not considered a top 5 fighter.

This obviously matters.

Barboza's fights against Tony and Khabib were 15 months apart, he was the same fighter.

Barboza fought Pettis and Gilbert on the worst skids of their career, they were both on two fight losing streaks and Gil was completely shot, never wont a fight again.

Barboza is 5-5 in his last 10, anyone decent on form wrecks him.

It's like how Khabib fought a highly ranked Michael Johnson who'd lost 2 of his last 3 coming into the Khabib fight and went on to lose most of his fights after that and should probably be cut.

The rankings aren't very objective, you get guys lose fights and hold their place, guys win and don't move up, I think a lot of it is marketing. Iaquinta loses to Khabib and jumped up about 5 places.

 

[Ufcmaster]

What are you counting Tony's prime as? He's on an 8 year 12 fight unbeaten streak.

No one in UFC history has been on a win streak anywhere near this long without fighting for the title.

His strength of schedule is very comparable to Khabib's, they even have a common opponents who Tony finished that Khabib took to decision like Tibau and Barboza.

Michael Johnson ...

And not only that but opponents head to head:

Conrat beat Cowboy
Poirier beat Pettis
Al beat lee twice now

Plus the MJ win for Khabib makes this 4-0 in favor of Khabib

 

[benebox]

1) Penn
2) Edgar
Tony / Khabib winner becomes #1

 

[cmw43]

Michael Johnson ...

And not only that but opponents head to head:

Conrat beat Cowboy
Poirier beat Pettis
Al beat lee twice now

Plus the MJ win for Khabib makes this 4-0 in favor of Khabib



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Tony broke his arm early in the MJ fight, you think MJ really has a chance against him in a rematch now?

That's just MMA math, Cowboy absolutely battered Raging Al but I wouldn't pick him to beat Kevin Lee.