Thoughts on Rickson's BJJ/Self Defense claims?

[yetanother]

I don't think any heavyweight today could win back-to-back vale tudo matches against two prime copies of Martins, followed by 9 more MMA matches against an admittedly weak lineup that still included the Lumax Cup winner, an older Funaki, etc.

The situation would be worse if you added the *documented* semi-streetfight challenge matches like Anjo or a young Duarte, twice.

EDIT: Unless you were just exaggerating to make a point, and didn't intend to be taken literally.

Wonder Boy Steven Thomsons would just spinning him them all (including Rickson) in the head nearly instantly.

 

[Coconutwater]

Granted that the sport has advanced over the years; you think that Kron would be able to beat the guys Rickson did, with the limited rules Rickson faced, including the occasional streetfights against professional fighters that we have records of?

I think a case could be made, certainly, but Rickson's job as family challenge match enforcer wasn't an easy one.

I think it’s not the same comparison as Rickson literally started his MMA career vs Zulu, he was like 18.

Kron made his debut at 27, despite training with the scrap pack since his early twenties. The point is, Kron was too busy trying to keep the Gracie name relevant in sport Jiu Jitsu against assassins like Marcelo and Moraes, and Buchecha. And Kron did outstanding, his game is totally different from his dad IMO. One can argue Kron’s feat in BJJ was harder in the 2000’s than Rickson’s MMA accomplishments in the late 80’s to mid-90’s.

But to compare them doesn’t really work at all.
Rickson’s no joke but Kron and his father are nothing alike, even in BJJ.

 

[spiderguarda]

Uh yeah it's pretty basic knowledge and by "feel" I would expect a bjj black belt to he was looking for seoi nagi. I mean Rickson tried to tell him what to do and he was still lost.

That’s absolutely true. Budo Jake to his credit did his best but simple GJJ self defense stuff, he couldn’t even do or understand. There was someone sitting in the corner laughing at him. Is it so hard to get out of the side headlock? With a Rickson, yeah, but a Rickson made him look silly and once he corrected him, he did much better. And I don’t think Rickson “gave” him the escapes.

I understand Rickson’s concern. Because Bjj is pushed by schools giving out free seminars. Some show triangles or armbars from the guard. That’s useless. Getting out of mount, if forced to, how to use a far guard and upkick and technical standup to run away, getting out of arm grabs, body locks, hair grabs and such.

Bjj is not the equivalent of what the Gracie’s and the early students who practiced sparring with light punches and kicks and challenge matches.

But that wouldn’t be what most students want. That’s why I started ages ago.
And it was for a grappling fighting style. I like the sports aspect more because it is fun but I do miss the early days where we had light sparring.

 

[spiderguarda]

Why should I train striking? For mma it's obviously mandatory but doing MMA seems stupid if you won't ever be a UFC champion. I don't want do compete in anything with strikes. Why would I ever want brain injury? I don't plan on any street fights either, there doesn't seem to be anything to win in those. For MMA I believe a Ryan Hall style wizardly game is a lot better than the old crap. Forcing inefficient things from bad positions or against people who just want to survive is super hard.

You don’t have to spar. You can learn and focus on slipping punches and footwork. Work on mitt drills. You can do very light sparring but it takes a good partner and trainer. I would like to spend time dong this but not enough time in a day for everything.

 

[HunterAcosta]

You don’t have to spar. You can learn and focus on slipping punches and footwork. Work on mitt drills. You can do very light sparring but it takes a good partner and trainer. I would like to spend time dong this but not enough time in a day for everything.

This. People think to get decent at surviving a "street" encounter with decent standup means that you have to spend hours sparring hard and getting fucked up. A person with some attributes can pick up a lot doing mitt drills with defense drills, shadowboxing and doing SOME sparring(doesn't have to be full contact, just getting used to getting hit and trying to hit somebody who doesn't WANT to be hit). Even slap boxing with a friend(you trust) can really build up confidence on getting hit and not flinching. Im talking about boxing sparring. Obviously kickboxing sparring adds another element to learn. And if someone really wants to get good or fight, then they have to spend a lot more time sparring and getting fucked up to build mental toughness. But just to be able to throw halfway decent hands? I don't think you need hours upon hours a day of working on it. Hell, I have a friend who is explosive and athletic that has never formally boxed but is tough, has fast reflexes, good coordination, balance and learns fast. He can hang with me with gloves on, even though I boxed for a year. Hes just a natural. If he trained hed be real good.....Throwing in some ground and pound practice with mma gloves and headgear can also add a realistic option/practice.

 

[Cash Bill 52]

You don’t have to spar. You can learn and focus on slipping punches and footwork. Work on mitt drills. You can do very light sparring but it takes a good partner and trainer. I would like to spend time dong this but not enough time in a day for everything.

I like to get in the ring once and a while. Sometimes the boxing coach helps me with my rhythm and timing. No head punches, just light sparring.

 

[Cash Bill 52]

This. People think to get decent at surviving a "street" encounter with decent standup means that you have to spend hours sparring hard and getting fucked up. A person with some attributes can pick up a lot doing mitt drills with defense drills, shadowboxing and doing SOME sparring(doesn't have to be full contact, just getting used to getting hit and trying to hit somebody who doesn't WANT to be hit). Even slap boxing with a friend(you trust) can really build up confidence on getting hit and not flinching. Im talking about boxing sparring. Obviously kickboxing sparring adds another element to learn. And if someone really wants to get good or fight, then they have to spend a lot more time sparring and getting fucked up to build mental toughness. But just to be able to throw halfway decent hands? I don't think you need hours upon hours a day of working on it. Hell, I have a friend who is explosive and athletic that has never formally boxed but is tough, has fast reflexes, good coordination, balance and learns fast. He can hang with me with gloves on, even though I boxed for a year. Hes just a natural. If he trained hed be real good.....Throwing in some ground and pound practice with mma gloves and headgear can also add a realistic option/practice.

Yep, good post! I do a little shadow boxing, footwork drills, bag work... over the years I’ve had some one hold mits. I never plan to fight, but the muscle memory over the years of minimal stand up I hope helps if the time ever comes.

 

[nefti]

I don't think Ryan would have been as lucky in other situations.

That guy was basically harmless.

I know a few guys that kill me in BJJ in guard or half guard but I'd kill them in a real fight.

Because:

a) They have no striking
b) They have poor takedowns
c) they weigh less than a buck fifty

What happens when your sloppy double leg gets stuffed?

I like sport BJJ though but there is a lot of guard pulling hipsters now, not sure GJJ is the answer though. lol

I have news for you, ricksons double leg and his takedowns in general were sloppy.

 

[nefti]

That’s absolutely true. Budo Jake to his credit did his best but simple GJJ self defense stuff, he couldn’t even do or understand. There was someone sitting in the corner laughing at him. Is it so hard to get out of the side headlock? With a Rickson, yeah, but a Rickson made him look silly and once he corrected him, he did much better. And I don’t think Rickson “gave” him the escapes.

Lets get something clear, budo jake knows headlock and mount escapes. If you watch the rickson video he starts an escape (legit one that is even taught in early gracie tapes) and rickson stops him. Rickson pulled ab old school martial arts trick; he demanded a specific counter without telling jake which counter he wanted. So he makes jake and thus sport jiu jitsu loom bad.

Its an old martial arts demonstration trick. if i tell you to escape my armbar and even though you are executing one of the legit ones I start scolding you because you dont know the specific escape im thinking in my head.

Its like I tell you to bring me a cup from the cupboard and scold you for nor bringing the specific cup i had in mind.

 

[spiderguarda]

Lets get something clear, budo jake knows headlock and mount escapes. If you watch the rickson video he starts an escape (legit one that is even taught in early gracie tapes) and rickson stops him. Rickson pulled ab old school martial arts trick; he demanded a specific counter without telling jake which counter he wanted. So he makes jake and thus sport jiu jitsu loom bad.

Its an old martial arts demonstration trick. if i tell you to escape my armbar and even though you are executing one of the legit ones I start scolding you because you dont know the specific escape im thinking in my head.

Its like I tell you to bring me a cup from the cupboard and scold you for nor bringing the specific cup i had in mind.

Let me be clear, Budo Jake did use one legit escape but Rickson stopped Jake. Was Rickson cheating as you’re asserting? In some ways, definitely. But it’s not about a single move. When a Rickson just countered it by not cooperating with Jake’s rote step by step technique, Rickson wanted to keep things realistic. Jake couldn’t get out of the mount escape which Rickson did explain the rules or scenario and Jake failed. I don’t think he would of made two videos where he looks bad by Rickson if he felt Rickson wasnots showing something useful to him and viewers. I guess we both have to email Jake.

 

[spiderguarda]

@nefti

Sorry. Editing not working.

Name one specific technique where Rickson tricked Jake?

Rickson taught his version of the upa mount escape. As Rickson would say I’m not giving you this. He’s really resisting but Jake could upa Rickson off. It was about maximizing leverage. d. Rickson didn’t trick Jake. The from behind choke where a Rickson uses the seoi nage showed if anything Jake didn’t understand Judo fundamentals which is you need to have your hips and body tight against your opponent or you will have a hard time throwing him.

 

[lechien]

We all aware that rickson has a specific style of teaching where he puts specific parameters in order to display his invisible jiu jitsu.
Some people love it as it add to his mystic.

Some others would look at it as Jedi mind tricks.
The beauty is in the eyes of the beholder

 

[nefti]

@nefti

Sorry. Editing not working.

Name one specific technique where Rickson tricked Jake?

Rickson taught his version of the upa mount escape. As Rickson would say I’m not giving you this. He’s really resisting but Jake could upa Rickson off. It was about maximizing leverage. d. Rickson didn’t trick Jake. The from behind choke where a Rickson uses the seoi nage showed if anything Jake didn’t understand Judo fundamentals which is you need to have your hips and body tight against your opponent or you will have a hard time throwing him.

Jake knows How to do a seo nagi. And if you see rickson slightly changes his energy causing jake to go though the counters. Then he scolds jake for now knowing the counter he wanted.

Again all those options are shown in the old gracie self defense tapes. Rickson as posted above did his Jedi mind trick.

 

[BJJ Coffee Drinker]

We all aware that rickson has a specific style of teaching where he puts specific parameters in order to display his invisible jiu jitsu.
Some people love it as it add to his mystic.

Some others would look at it as Jedi mind tricks.
The beauty is in the eyes of the beholder

Is it just me, or does Henry Akins basically do the same thing when he teaches/demonstrates?

 

[lechien]

Is it just me, or does Henry Akins basically do the same thing when he teaches/demonstrates?

Correct.

The apple does not fall far from the tree so to speak.

 

[lechien]

At the end of the day, the issue is human nature.
We somehow believe there are secret moves that make us better than other beings.

But by now, you realise that bjj is a long list of moves that have counter to counter and quickly you fall in the rabbit hole.

For example, an adult green belt student joined my club and of course I asked him to wear his white belt because green belt is a kid belt in my program.

He obliged.

When I demonstrated my basic guard pass. He quickly tried to get my approval on a special way he learned from a five time world champion at a seminar .
I totally acknowledged that his technique was sound proof and made sense.
Then I went back to my program and kept on the class.

But to think about that moment, why did he need to demonstrate it or ask for my approval?

I could have put it in the spot and try to find something wrong but I think it was good.

But I did not to divert the class as I believe you have limited time to teach and train .

To think about it, how do we improve or add techniques: one team member would just use a new technique during rolling, defeat people with it and then we will all puzzle about it and break it down and absord it as our own. That is what tribes of bjj being doing for years .


There is no magic trick...the biggest lesson I have learned was reading stories about Kano...the founder of Judo ..he had a vision that if he could create a curriculum of existing of old jiu jitsu, teach and spar in the safe manner and create a common goals like common good etc..his vision and members will progress.

In my point of view, this is the magic and secret of martial arts.

But I guess, it is easier to buy into an affiliation program and ride it for example. Replicate a cult.

 

[2arctanx]

his students can't compete in mundials don't do well in tournaments so this is an excuse.

 

[yetanother]

At the end of the day, the issue is human nature.
We somehow believe there are secret moves that make us better than other beings.

Assuming all moves are equal is extreme old school idiocy.
There is a vast difference between trash moves that can be reliably and easily countered 99% of the time with a strong counter attack, ones where the counter sets up different reactions or might require superior strength and efforts.[/QUOTE]

 

[lechien]

Assuming all moves are equal is extreme old school idiocy.
There is a vast difference between trash moves that can be reliably and easily countered 99% of the time with a strong counter attack, ones where the counter sets up different reactions or might require superior strength and efforts.

[/QUOTE]

Correct.
You have moves taught by fake BB that don't work and I am not addressing that issue.

I am just addressing the issue that you have bjj instructors spending their time denigrating other's techniques so they make their techniques look special.

For example, there is a specific 50/50 escape that I use to love doing and was the bomb back in the days but now after using for a while....it is not so good because I realised that the escape leads to the receiving end of a nasty single X guard (assuming my opponent knows what he is doing).

Well I feel 50/50 is modern bjj but already some techniques are being "outdated"....just like closed guard was outdated before that.

 

[yetanother]

There is value in a multiple world champion stating that something is trash. I had my first coach show back defenses that Roger Gracie asked if someone in a seminar was doing and told them to never use the again. Even on sherdog in threads about the most retarded and crap techniques there are tons of people claiming that they are great.