This is what a wrestler is supposed to look like

[Jonathan Utah]

It’s not his cardio that’s the issue. Have you considered how messed up his knees are?

 

[Substance Abuse]

See my PS and PPS. A wrestler shouldn't win just by grinding out his opponent and doing nothing. A strict enforcement of the current ruleset should address this problem. I want them to go a small step further by not awarding ANY points for merely a TD or strong position. Scoring should be 100% based on the damage you do / subs you attempt.

Usman being a cardio machine makes my point. With this revised ruleset, there may have been some wins from Usman's career that would have actually been losses.

"Gasses out by the later rounds, looks like he's throwing punches underwater, takedown attempts are similarly feeble. I'm of course talking about Usman."

Those are your first two sentences.

Usman did more than grind people out with wrestling. See his fights with Burns, both fights with Covington, and the second fight with Masvidal. He landed 130+ strikes on both Woodley and RDA in his wins. If Usman is dominating positionally, controlling the fight with pressure and takedowns, while also landing more strikes, he's doing more than just grinding guys out.

Based off of your OP you may want to start watching boxing.

 

[mmainvestigations]

If they're controlling the opponent, then they are not taking damage, and probably doing more damage themselves, so why should they not win the fight?

Good question. So let's say in a round Fighter B (striker) lands some hard blows in the beginning, then Fighter A (wrestler) takes them down. Fighter B pops back up, but gets pushed against the cage. Fighter A leans on him for the rest of the round, doing some foot stomps and pitter patter.

In this example, fighter B would win the round. Fighter A did nothing but land a TD which was ineffective and some pitter patter against the cage while controlling his opponent.

 

[HHJ]

TLDR

Summary: Waaah I am gotten to by the superiority of wrestling and cardio isnt fair

 

[mmainvestigations]

"Gasses out by the later rounds, looks like he's throwing punches underwater, takedown attempts are similarly feeble. I'm of course talking about Usman."

Those are your first two sentences.

Usman did more than grind people out with wrestling. See his fights with Burns, both fights with Covington, and the second fight with Masvidal. He landed 130+ strikes on both Woodley and RDA in his wins. If Usman is dominating positionally, controlling the fight with pressure and takedowns, while also landing more strikes, he's doing more than just grinding guys out.

Based off of your OP you may want to start watching boxing.

Well I'm obviously pointing out that Usman's cardio was worse for this fight. A lot of other people would agree with me. Not everyone, sure, some people may think Leon tired him out. I just think he's lost a step and he's getting older.

I'm not saying Usman's career would be bunk if the new ruleset had been applied retroactively, I'm saying he may have lost a close decision or two. Same for other wrestlers who made a career of wall n stall.

 

[Mohawk Banditó]

I was going to say THIS is what a wrestler is supposed to look like:

 

[Substance Abuse]

Well I'm obviously pointing out that Usman's cardio was worse for this fight. A lot of other people would agree with me. Not everyone, sure, some people may think Leon tired him out. I just think he's lost a step and he's getting older.

I'm not saying Usman's career would be bunk if the new ruleset had been applied retroactively, I'm saying he may have lost a close decision or two. Same for other wrestlers who made a career of wall n stall.

He is getting older. He has lost a step. He's 36 with a lifetime in wrestling and fighting. Leon did impact his cardio with his movement and striking. Both can be true.

I still fail to see a single fight on his resume he would have lost with the current ruleset that he won. If you look at his UFC career, in his wins, Usman landed more punches than his opposition in every fight he ever had except one, and that fight wasn't close.

You stating that the athletic commissions should basically ignore all grappling/wrestling in the scoring is asinine as well.

Boxing. Kickboxing. They exist. Enjoy.

 

[mmainvestigations]

TLDR

Summary: Waaah I am gotten to by the superiority of wrestling and cardio isnt fair

Nah, I'm gotten to by how much credit wall-n-stall, lay-n-pray, and spamming ineffective TD strategies have been given by judges.

There is nothing about laying on top of someone that brings the fight closer to a conclusion. You do that by doing damage or attempting submissions. Why then award points solely for laying on top of someone?

 

[mmainvestigations]

He is getting older. He has lost a step. He's 36 with a lifetime in wrestling and fighting. I still fail to see a single fight on his resume he would have lost with the current ruleset. If you look at his UFC career, in his wins, Usman landed more punches than his opposition in every fight he ever had except one, and that fight wasn't close.

You stating that the athletic commissions should basically ignore all grappling/wrestling in the scoring is asinine as well.

You call it asinine, but in the Aljo thread, over 60 people seemed to agree with my suggestion. Laying on someone doesn't bring the fight any closer to a conclusion, damage or submission attempts do. Why should you then be awarded points for it?

As far as Usman's fights, maybe, maybe not, but you can't say the rule change would not cause any differences in fight outcomes.

 

[HHJ]

Nah, I'm gotten to by how much credit wall-n-stall, lay-n-pray, and spamming ineffective TD strategies have been given by judges.

There is nothing about laying on top of someone that brings the fight closer to a conclusion. You do that by doing damage or attempting submissions. Why then award points solely for laying on top of someone?

Because Wrestling is the strongest that's why. DO SOMETHIN ABOUT IT OR BE 50-45'd.

BY LIFE.

 

[SkinnyClaw]

Good question. So let's say in a round Fighter B (striker) lands some hard blows in the beginning, then Fighter A (wrestler) takes them down. Fighter B pops back up, but gets pushed against the cage. Fighter A leans on him for the rest of the round, doing some foot stomps and pitter patter.

In this example, fighter B would win the round. Fighter A did nothing but land a TD which was ineffective and some pitter patter against the cage while controlling his opponent.

If the wrestler was damaged so severely, how is he able to control the other guy for the rest of the round? If he can do that, then clearly he wasn't that affected by the earlier shots.

If he was on wobbly legs or knocked down, and then just held the other guy against the cage and didn't do anything, I don't think he would be given the round, unless you have an actual example of this? We saw this recently in the Petr Yan and O'Malley fight. The opposite of what you say happened, the wrestling and control didn't get rewarded.

 

[HHJ]

You call it asinine, but in the Aljo thread, over 60 people seemed to agree with my suggestion. Laying on someone doesn't bring the fight any closer to a conclusion, damage or submission attempts do. Why should you then be awarded points for it?

As far as Usman's fights, maybe, maybe not, but you can't say the rule change would not cause any differences in fight outcomes.

Fuck all 60 of those people.

 

[JustBleed69]

Take some time off the internet for a bit and rethink your life buddeh

 

[Substance Abuse]

Nah, I'm gotten to by how much credit wall-n-stall, lay-n-pray, and spamming ineffective TD strategies have been given by judges.

There is nothing about laying on top of someone that brings the fight closer to a conclusion. You do that by doing damage or attempting submissions. Why then award points solely for laying on top of someone?

I addressed the resume head on, you've yet to prove otherwise with a direct reference once, I'll take that as you conceding this point.

Secondly, where did Aljo lay on top of someone? You must be upset about the second Yan fight. And 60 people? Wow. Overwhelming majority of the forum and the fan base. I'm convinced now, southpaw.

 

[mmainvestigations]

If the wrestler was damaged so severely, how is he able to control the other guy for the rest of the round? If he can do that, then clearly he wasn't that affected by the earlier shots.

If he was on wobbly legs or knocked down, and then just held the other guy against the cage and didn't do anything, I don't think he would be given the round, unless you have an actual example of this? We saw this recently in the Petr Yan and O'Malley fight. The opposite of what you say happened, the wrestling and control didn't get rewarded.

Your logic does not make sense here, that's not how judges score strikes. As long as a shot was hard the judges will notice it and classify it as damaging. Visible damage or wobbling will get more points, but a hard shot is still given credit.

Sometimes the judges do apply the criteria correctly, in others they don't. This inconsistency is part of what I don't like.

 

[SkinnyClaw]

Your logic does not make sense here, that's not how judges score strikes. As long as a shot was hard the judges will notice it and classify it as damaging. Visible damage or wobbling will get more points, but a hard shot is still given credit.

Sometimes the judges do apply the criteria correctly, in others they don't. This inconsistency is part of what I don't like.

I have no idea how judges score anything, neither do you because you're not a judge and you've never spoken to one, but I'm talking about what actually happens, you are just making up a hypothetical scenario, but when I ask for an example you changed the subject. In what fight does a guy take massive shots, then hold his opponent down with no damage, and wins the round? I don't recall this in any fight I can remember

 

[mmainvestigations]

I addressed the resume head on, you've yet to prove otherwise with a direct reference once, I'll take that as you conceding this point.

Secondly, where did Aljo lay on top of someone? You must be upset about the second Yan fight. And 60 people? Wow. Overwhelming majority of the forum and the fan base. I'm convinced now, southpaw.

The point is that it's not so asinine that other people aren't signing onto it. I would wager a considerable percentage of the fanbase would be on board with the change.

I'm not conceding on the Usman point, I just haven't done the analysis. It is plausible that such a shift would have led to different fight outcomes, though admittedly not in landslide victories, it would have to be a close fight.

Also, the Aljo thread was not referencing Aljo laying on top of someone.

 

[infinite666]

Gasses out by the later rounds, looks like he's throwing punches underwater, takedown attempts are similarly feeble. I'm of course talking about Usman. It's very very very rare to be able to be shooting TD attempts in round 5 nonstop like you were in round 1 with the same intensity. He had to conserve energy and even then by the later rounds was pretty tired.

Imagine if Usman's cardio was unlimited. Instead of the better fighter winning (Leon), you'd see Usman spam unlimited TD attempts and grinding out Leon, even if those attempts weren't successful. Drag Leon down, throw some garbage strikes in while doing so, Leon pops back up, then rinse and repeat x40. Usman would even outland Leon in this situation, since Leon would get no chance to implement any striking game at all, he'd just lose to the guy with much better cardio. Despite the fact that Usman wasn't really effective in those takedown attempts and strikes. You need breathing space to work if you're a striker, and you just don't get any if the wrestler never gasses out.

But that's not what happened, Usman's cardio was limited, Leon imposed his game and won. The better fighter won.

You know where I'm going with this.

Without unlimited cardio, Merab loses to Petr Yan. So kudos to his strength and conditioning coach, but he is not the superior fighter in terms of skill.

Discuss.


P.S. This not just nonconstructive whining. There is a solution to all this.

Do not award points for takedowns or position, just for damage or submission attempts. Even in close fights. Takedowns and strong position are their own reward. If you can't do any damage to a guy with a strong position, that's your fault and you shouldn't be rewarded merely for getting position.

P.P.S. By the way, the rules are already very close to what I'm pushing for, I just want a bit more.
I want them to enforce the fact that you need to do something with the TD / position for it to count (judges are all over the place in how they apply this rule now), and I want them to completely disregard the TDs / position themselves in scoring fights (as it stands now, in very close rounds, you get some credit for the TD, albeit a small amount).

Still salty yan lost?

 

[Substance Abuse]

The point is that it's not so asinine that other people aren't signing onto it. I would wager a considerable percentage of the fanbase would be on board with the change.

I'm not conceding on the Usman point, I just haven't done the analysis. It is plausible that such a shift would have led to different fight outcomes, though admittedly not in landslide victories, it would have to be a close fight.

Also, the Aljo thread was not referencing Aljo laying on top of someone.

So you focused on one fighter in the OP of this thread and did no analysis on it? LMAO.

Good to know. Moving on.

 

[mmainvestigations]

I have no idea how judges score anything, neither do you because you're not a judge and you've never spoken to one, but I'm talking about what actually happens, you are just making up a hypothetical scenario, but when I ask for an example you changed the subject. In what fight does a guy take massive shots, then hold his opponent down with no damage, and wins the round? I don't recall this in any fight I can remember

You're changing what I said. I didn't say "massive". I said hard blows. You're imagining a fighter getting wobbled severely then holding on for dear life and winning the round.

I'm saying he just lands a few solid shots and good exchanges in the beginning (first 20 seconds), then gets controlled for 4:40 with pitter patter and foot stomps. There are plenty of examples of wrestlers winning rounds in situations like this.