The War on Planned Parenthood.

[Denter]

Of course it's not appetizing. But disgust is a poor foundation for law or morality in my opinion. Like I said, I think it's a morally fraught issue and it's one I don't have a final answer on even personally, but not being a religious person I don't think that a bundle of cells is a human from the first moment of conception, and I don't think it's entitled to be treated as such under the law. A big part of that is that my conception of the value of human life is not drawn from humanity being created in the image of God or being essentially (in the technical sense, as a function of essence) special in any way. Things are a lot more complex when you're an atheist, it's one of the big downsides :icon_sad:

If you think there is a line somewhere, don't you think we should err on the side of caution, and restrict abortion to extremely early in the pregnancy?

 

[TSO]

TS you start a thread a week about hunting but have no problem with killing baby's
and as it turns out not just killing baby's but harvesting organs.

You people are freaks

It is a strange double standard/hypocrisy that "pro-choice" and "pro-life" people seem to have.

One side thinks killing everything from criminals to animals with anything that can be considered a trophy as acceptable but killing an unwanted fetus isn't.

The other side thinks killing anything except an unwanted fetus is unacceptable.

Both sides are fucking retarded.

 

[Uchi Mata]

If you think there is a line somewhere, don't you think we should err on the side of caution, and restrict abortion to extremely early in the pregnancy?

I don't really have a problem with 15 week bans except in the case of mother's health. 20 weeks at most. I don't think a mother's right to abort a fetus is unlimited, though pinning down when that ends is very difficult and I don't have a good line of reasoning for when it should be.

 

[Medusas Weave]

Hold on, so people who chop up a baby inside it's mother and sell the organs to drive Lamborghinis are being attacked???
Who are we going to attack next? Serial killers?

 

[ripskater]

Hold on, so people who chop up a baby inside it's mother and sell the organs to drive Lamborghinis are being attacked???
Who are we going to attack next? Serial killers?

Lol.

We have too many people on the planet anyway.

 

[Medusas Weave]

It's alive in the sense that it's part of its mother's living body. I don't understand how anyone can look at a bundle of cells a few weeks after conception and say 'yeah, that's a person'. It has the potential to become a person, but that's true for literally every sperm and egg ever generated by any person's body. I do think you reach a point where a fetus has some claim to independent life, but I don't think it's shortly after conception. But then again, I don't believe in souls, so there you go.

Why do you have to be religious to think an unborn baby is not a person? Are they fighting against known scientific fact?
Do you think that "hey, it pops out that is a person. It just now became a person"

And you don't believe in souls, but you do believe that a person lives life, correct?
I would wager you think that people only live one life?

So, the mother of this person who has only this one chance to live is having it killed?

It is a person. It is alive. You show me where it is not alive or how it will not be a baby when it comes out that vag.

If a big fat preggers woman walks by you and you kick her in the stomach mercilessly until she has a miscarriage, you would be ok with only charging the perp for assault/battery and not murder/manslaughter/etc?

 

[7437]

 

[LiveFreeorDie]

Except that major efforts are often taken to prevent PP from providing low-income women with birth control, breast cancer checks and counseling, etc.

Not sure if serious...

I think low income people should be required to have abortions. Also people on welfare should have to come in and get a monthly birth control shot in order to get their check.

 

[LiveFreeorDie]

I don't really have a problem with 15 week bans except in the case of mother's health. 20 weeks at most. I don't think a mother's right to abort a fetus is unlimited, though pinning down when that ends is very difficult and I don't have a good line of reasoning for when it should be.

Also cases of rape should be aborted, and the mother should be stoned to death afterwards for being a whore.

 

[uppercutbus]

I really don't understand this argument that the baby is not alive until its born, can anyone say this with a straight face? its complete bullshit

http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/straw-man.html

Another "this is what pro-choicers think. . . it's not alive". It's alive just like sperm and egg are alive. Nice strawman though. Most abortions are early term, far from where brain development arguments become an issue and late term abortion are already illegal.

Why do you have to be religious to think an unborn baby is not a person?

You don't have to be religious, you just don't have to be a moron.

Do you see pro-lifers protesting outside IVF clinics. . . no because they know themselves their "personhood from conception" is pretty dumb and they know it.

 

[Adamant]

Save the children, abort illegals instead.

 

[Medusas Weave]

http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/straw-man.html

Another "this is what pro-choicers think. . . it's not alive". It's alive just like sperm and egg are alive. Nice strawman though. Most abortions are early term, far from where brain development arguments become an issue and late term abortion are already illegal.



You don't have to be religious, you just don't have to be a moron.

Do you see pro-lifers protesting outside IVF clinics. . . no because they know themselves their "personhood from conception" is pretty dumb and they know it.

A sperm is not a person. Are you a fucking moron? You have to be dumb as fuck to think that.
A human fetus is a person. It is alive. If you leave it in its mother without cutting it up and sucking it out with a vacuum cleaner it will be born and be a baby.

You can let a sperm anywhere and if it does not fertilize and egg it will die.

I like how planned parenthood has brainwashed people into thinking certain people are not people. Do they use the same hand gestures they did in the late 1930s.

Look, if you want to make abortions legal, that it fine. But I am saying just call murder as being murder. Your are legally murdering your unborn child.
See, it is a living but unborn child.

But if any pro choicers here ever try to have a baby and their wife is pregnant, I am sure you would let me punch her in the belly until she miscarries and give zero fucks as it was not even a person.

 

[Irenaeus]

I don't really have a problem with 15 week bans except in the case of mother's health. 20 weeks at most. I don't think a mother's right to abort a fetus is unlimited, though pinning down when that ends is very difficult and I don't have a good line of reasoning for when it should be.

20 weeks is a little late for me. That's around when the nervous system is developed. Drawing an exact line for when something is human is difficult, but I'm pretty comfortable saying that something that has never had a nervous system isn't a person. 15-16 weeks or so seems relatively unproblematic to me. 20 gets a little iffy, and that's not really acceptable when discussing human life.

 

[UpaLoompa]

But if any pro choicers here ever try to have a baby and their wife is pregnant, I am sure you would let me punch her in the belly until she miscarries and give zero fucks as it was not even a person.

That's some grade A reasoning right there.

 

[UpaLoompa]

20 weeks is a little late for me. That's around when the nervous system is developed. Drawing an exact line for when something is human is difficult, but I'm pretty comfortable saying that something that has never had a nervous system isn't a person. 15-16 weeks or so seems relatively unproblematic to me. 20 gets a little iffy, and that's not really acceptable when discussing human life.

Part of the problem is that abortion access in the US is actually highly restricted and pro-life activists continually seek to make it more difficult and to also harass people going to clinics. For example, there's a clinic in the city I live in and it serves as the closest one for people up to a 12hr drive away. It also only offers abortions one day a month, during which it is heavily picketed. Well within the same distances there are numerous "First Choice" clinics that are basically dishonest storefronts that work to prevent abortions; for example, they'll schedule appointments several weeks out and basically lie until the pregnant women (girls, actually) are too far along for legal abortions. The view of abortion access activists therefore is that earlier cutoff dates become problematic because of the context within which they'd be implemented. I think part of it also comes down to being unwilling to cede any ground because pro-life activists clearly are trying to push toward total bans.

Neither of these are necessarily compelling reasons against early cutoffs but they're worth keeping in mind. This isn't Germany where a first trimester cutoff, with counseling, necessarily would work.

 

[ultramanhyata]

You can let a sperm anywhere and if it does not fertilize and egg it will die.

I don't know, man... I saved a sperm I released when I was 14. Put it in a fish bowl. It's now about the size of a sardine. And I've trained it to jump through a little hoop for cracker crumbs. Sperm aren't as stupid as some people think.

 

[Uchi Mata]

20 weeks is a little late for me. That's around when the nervous system is developed. Drawing an exact line for when something is human is difficult, but I'm pretty comfortable saying that something that has never had a nervous system isn't a person. 15-16 weeks or so seems relatively unproblematic to me. 20 gets a little iffy, and that's not really acceptable when discussing human life.

I don't really have a problem with a 15 week cutoff, or even first trimester.

 

[ultramanhyata]

If a big fat preggers woman walks by you and you kick her in the stomach mercilessly until she has a miscarriage, you would be ok with only charging the perp for assault/battery and not murder/manslaughter/etc?

Oddly enough it is the bible itself, in the OT, that places the punishment for causing unintentional miscarriage and death to the unborn well below the punishment for unintentionally killing an adult or a child outside the womb.

So it would appear God Himself makes some sort of distinction between a fetus and a baby.

 

[second sight]

20 weeks is a little late for me. That's around when the nervous system is developed. Drawing an exact line for when something is human is difficult, but I'm pretty comfortable saying that something that has never had a nervous system isn't a person. 15-16 weeks or so seems relatively unproblematic to me. 20 gets a little iffy, and that's not really acceptable when discussing human life.

15 weeks seems pretty clear to me.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fat-ASCJWZo

 

[ultramanhyata]

15 weeks seems pretty clear to me.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fat-ASCJWZo

I agree. Would have no problem with a ban on abortion after 15 weeks (with potential exceptions for rape, incest, congenital malformations, life of mom).

I think people fighting for the "right" of women to have abortions for purposes of birth control beyond 15 weeks (give or take) are some morally debauched mofo's.