The Road to Wing Chun applied in Combat Sports

[TheMaster]

Bk fighting is more similar to gloved fighting than it is different.

The hands are faster
The hands are more damaging
The hands can slip through smaller holes in the guard.

These are minor changes that are easily adjusted to by a tighter guard. There's no overhaul of techniques.

There's no new angles and openings, only previously existing ones that have a better chance of punches slipping through.

And how exactly are these 'minor changes'?

How is the possibility and danger of guided elbow blocks breaking the hands a 'minor change'?

Or even just of your causal flick jabs now hitting the forehead and damaging the hands, making them not nearly so casual?

Cross guard was a staple of BK but seldom used in modern boxing as an example of different evolution.

Of course there are new angles, just like if I do a WC side palm strike behind your ear it would be coming from an angle your not used to. Incidently no one has confirmed yet if palm strikes are allowed in BK fighting. If they are it strengthens even more the chances of having success one day helping train someone to use WC in BK.

I'm not saying boxing is trash in BK just that you are majorly downplaying the modifications and overhaul needed for it to work effectively.
There is plenty of scope for other arts to come in and prove successful in that format and rival gloved western boxing as a base from the 'swinging-and-miss,brawling, getting busted up and dropped yet barely winning' formula we have seen so far in BK.
For you to higlight BK as an example of boxing supposed efficiency without being heavily modified as a system is a joke looking at their faces after the fights.

"It's normal, everyone who fights will end up with a broken nose, cut up face, semi closed eyes and missing teeth. It doesn't disprove the supremacy and indefatigable destructive and perfectionistism of gloved boxing style in BK. No major change is needed"

 

[shincheckin]

How is the possibility and danger of guided elbow blocks breaking the hands a 'minor change'?

Elbowing someone hand and injuring them doesn't need to be BK. You would cause just as much damage to someone in mma gloves. But we don't see it being done, as why it's possible, it's not practical. We have been over this already.

Of course there are new angles, just like if I do a WC side palm strike behind your ear it would be coming from an angle your not used to.

That would be the same angle as a hook. Nothing new.


I'm typing this from my cell phone and it's too much of a hassle. Your free to think what you want.

Look long story short, I have a educated and experienced opinion rather than just a opinion. I also have a open mind to other martial arts, because of this I can see some benefits from cross training WC

Its great that you want to promote WC and surely it is a uphill battle due to its poor reputation amongst many other things.

That being said, the majority of your statements demonstrate a lack of knowledge of fighting in general.

 

[TheMaster]

Elbowing someone hand and injuring them doesn't need to be BK. You would cause just as much damage to someone in mma gloves. But we don't see it being done, as why it's possible, it's not practical. We have been over this already.



That would be the same angle as a hook. Nothing new.

It's not a sporting move and I doubt promoters would encourage it. If it was more widely used it would probably get banned anyway as who wants to see a fighter with a broken hand?

And no, MMA gloves are not the same as BK and provide much more protection. Example being you can punch the forehead at full power with an MMA glove but you cannot BK.
Same would apply to elbow blocks.

Also, although most of the angles for a hook can be the same as a side palm, not all. As you're not experienced with palmstrikes however I wouldn't hold that against you for not knowing.

 

[shincheckin]

It's not a sporting move and I doubt promoters would encourage it. If it was more widely used it would probably get banned anyway as who wants to see a fighter with a broken hand?

And no, MMA gloves are not the same as BK and provide much more protection. Example being you can punch the forehead at full power with an MMA glove but you cannot BK.
Same would apply to elbow blocks.

Also, although most of the angles for a hook can be the same as a side palm, not all. As you're not experienced with palmstrikes however I wouldn't hold that against you for not knowing.

What do you have to say about shinpads vs no shinpads?

 

[TheMaster]

What do you have to say about shinpads vs no shinpads?

I'm not a thaifighter and I don't like or use the round kick, so I'll take your word that it makes little difference.

However, the leg is more durable than the fist (atho obviously can still get snapped with that kick which is one of the reasons I dislike it) and further the target is usually the lower or upper leg of the opponent.

So due to frequency and ease of being able to strike with the hands and the proximity to the most important target the head makes changes to the protection at the hands much more significant in altering fight dynamics than protection to the shins.

 

[AndyMaBobs]

It's not a sporting move and I doubt promoters would encourage it. If it was more widely used it would probably get banned anyway as who wants to see a fighter with a broken hand?

And no, MMA gloves are not the same as BK and provide much more protection. Example being you can punch the forehead at full power with an MMA glove but you cannot BK.
Same would apply to elbow blocks.

Also, although most of the angles for a hook can be the same as a side palm, not all. As you're not experienced with palmstrikes however I wouldn't hold that against you for not knowing.

I'd strongly advice not doing this, because it's not true. Broken hands happen a lot in MMA, like, basically ever card.

I actually wouldn't be surprised if bareknuckle might be slightly safer for the puncher, because you don't have an illusion of protection

 

[SandisLL]

Not much illusion even with boxing gloves.

Okey, It might be funny to get someone with really puffy 18 oz or 20 oz gloves to punch this troll in forehead.
Better valuable life experience than 20 years in forums about "pillows" might be get. In gym, U.K does have a lot of gyms where he might get such experience.

 

[TheMaster]

I'd strongly advice not doing this, because it's not true. Broken hands happen a lot in MMA, like, basically ever card.

I actually wouldn't be surprised if bareknuckle might be slightly safer for the puncher, because you don't have an illusion of protection

Actually it depends how much you condition your hands for BK the likelihood of breaking.
Japanese styles condition with the makiwara.
I do respect your opinion but there is a difference in gloved and other types of conditioning which you may not be aware of.

In some branches of WC we will hit the wall bag filled with small pieces of stone.
Hurts like a sumbitch and you have to work up gradually to it, but I am able to hit it more or less full power now. Some say it leads to hand problems in old age which the Kyokushin guys suffer though.
There is a little bit of 'give' as the bag is not full,but not a lot as it is on the wall anyway. Also the punch is well aligned and straight. Either way, I'm not concerned at this point over a one off punch wearing MMA gloves to the upper part of the head.

Im not saying you should deliberately punch the forehead with gloves only that the hands are more protected so you have a much lesser chance of breaking them.
No way is BK safer on hands though.
MMA guys breaking the hands I figure it's the accumulation of strikes and hitting at bad angles.

Not much illusion even with boxing gloves.

Okey, It might be funny to get someone with really puffy 18 oz or 20 oz gloves to punch this troll in forehead.
Better valuable life experience than 20 years in forums about "pillows" might be get. In gym, U.K does have a lot of gyms where he might get such experience.

Would happily punch or palm heel you in the forehead , face or anywhere else.
A perrenial irritating troll with broken English. Back to trollville for you.

 

[SandisLL]

Would happily punch or palm heel you in the forehead , face or anywhere else.

You are so sure?
You might punch someone only in forum.
Therefore you ducked invitation to spar in one U.K gym offered to you in this thread.

Sadly some people are still wasting time with your posts.
Guy had registered in forum 20 years ago. <45>
TheMaster in TROLLING.

Don't worry, I rarerly read debiloids posts, therefore I will put you in ignore list again.

 

[eternaldarkness]

Wasn't wing chun invented by a girl?

 

[AndyMaBobs]

Actually it depends how much you condition your hands for BK the likelihood of breaking.
Japanese styles condition with the makiwara.
I do respect your opinion but there is a difference in gloved and other types of conditioning which you may not be aware of.

In some branches of WC we will hit the wall bag filled with small pieces of stone.
Hurts like a sumbitch and you have to work up gradually to it, but I am able to hit it more or less full power now. Some say it leads to hand problems in old age which the Kyokushin guys suffer though.
There is a little bit of 'give' as the bag is not full,but not a lot as it is on the wall anyway. Also the punch is well aligned and straight. Either way, I'm not concerned at this point over a one off punch wearing MMA gloves to the upper part of the head.

Im not saying you should deliberately punch the forehead with gloves only that the hands are more protected so you have a much lesser chance of breaking them.
No way is BK safer on hands though.
.

I know/do hand conditioning based on Okinawan karate and lethwei (including bare knuckle bag rounds). I remember Shincheckin wincing at a bag video of me smacking it bare knuckle - I think everyone should do it semi-regularly. My point is more that if I'm aware I can break my hands on your head, I'm probably going to be more careful - a bit like how NFL players end up fucking themselves up more because they think the pads protect them.

BK is less safe in terms of making the impact obviously, but I think its a bit like the shin guard/no shin guards thing. I haven't really seen many bare knuckle fights that weren't between two gypsies where they ddin't at least wrap their hands

 

[j123]

Wasn't wing chun invented by a girl?

Yeah, some nun chick was sick of seeing her fellow sorority sisters get bamboozled by ancient Chinese frat thug-life chads (Chongs) and invented WC so they wouldn't grab her ass at the monastery

 

[AndyMaBobs]

Yeah, some nun chick was sick of seeing her fellow sorority sisters get bamboozled by ancient Chinese frat thug life chads (Chongs) and invented WC so they wouldn't grab her ass at the monastery

if you weren't asian...

 

[Dexter]

I know/do hand conditioning based on Okinawan karate and lethwei (including bare knuckle bag rounds). I remember Shincheckin wincing at a bag video of me smacking it bare knuckle - I think everyone should do it semi-regularly.

Yeah, when you try hitting heavy bag bare-knuckled on regular basis, you begin to understand a thing or two about flaws in your punching technique. In Soviet\Cuban boxing gyms it's a must to work at least one round in a session BKed.

 

[Dece]

You are so sure?
You might punch someone only in forum.
Therefore you ducked invitation to spar in one U.K gym offered to you in this thread.

Sadly some people are still wasting time with your posts.
Guy had registered in forum 20 years ago. <45>
TheMaster in TROLLING.

Don't worry, I rarerly read debiloids posts, therefore I will put you in ignore list again.

The best thing about this thread is that he got exposed again by @Sanserif. Obviously just another keyboard warrior who's clueless about real training.

Just as funny as when he ages ago got exposed in the grappling forum. He tought grabbing the dick would destroy any guardwork.
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/...idiculous-for-self-defence-grappling.1557869/

 

[shincheckin]

I know/do hand conditioning based on Okinawan karate and lethwei (including bare knuckle bag rounds). I remember Shincheckin wincing at a bag video of me smacking it bare knuckle - I think everyone should do it semi-regularly. My point is more that if I'm aware I can break my hands on your head, I'm probably going to be more careful - a bit like how NFL players end up fucking themselves up more because they think the pads protect them.

BK is less safe in terms of making the impact obviously, but I think its a bit like the shin guard/no shin guards thing. I haven't really seen many bare knuckle fights that weren't between two gypsies where they ddin't at least wrap their hands

One minute BK punching is crap because of the risk of breaking your hands.....the next, it's no risk because of WC fist conditioning. Lol.

 

[TheMaster]

One minute BK punching is crap because of the risk of breaking your hands.....the next, it's no risk because of WC fist conditioning. Lol.

Your twisting my argument.
Fist conditioning helps prevent BK injuries to hands but won't stop them getting damaged or broken
Either way it makes elbow blocks more viable and palm stikes more viable and changes the game alot from what u see in a boxing match which is what I was saying and another reason why modern western boxing is not a great fit for BK.

 

[shincheckin]

The best thing about this thread is that he got exposed again by @Sanserif. Obviously just another keyboard warrior who's clueless about real training.

Just as funny as when he ages ago got exposed in the grappling forum. He tought grabbing the dick would destroy any guardwork.
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/...idiculous-for-self-defence-grappling.1557869/

Skimmed through the thread. Another example of his lack of knowledge on fighting in general. He has no clue how quick reaching for someone's balls from the guard will put you in a triangle choke. I figure he also doesn't view chokes as painful either, just the ability to not breathe.



At some point you gotta figure, similar to iron street smart Khan, you got 100s of people telling you the same thing vs 1 who disagrees. Surely the numbers speak for itself, we can't all be wrong

 

[TheMaster]

The best thing about this thread is that he got exposed again by @Sanserif.

How was I 'exposed' by sanserif? lol.

The guy trained WC for a short while a few years ago and didn't even know the difference between a bong sau and a rotational elbow strike, something even a beginner should know. The he was spouting bizaare ideas that WC is only 'linear' (basically misunderstanding centerline theory), when it has rotational axis strikes including a shifting hook punch as well as the elbows which follow an arc as well as stance turning straight punches etc etc
Actually it was good for noobs reading as it meant I had to go over basics and bring up videos of Ip Man students contradicting everything he was saying.

Just as funny as when he ages ago got exposed in the grappling forum.

Also, I'm amazed your bringing threads I made a decade ago.
But in summary, although the thread title was somewhat provoking at the time the premise was not disputed. A BJJ guy called draco actually ended up making a good video response saying if you lost wrist control you may be vulnerable to groin strikes from guard which is obvious unless you moved and controlled position well. It could be done with the elbow for example also.



So obviously it is important to practice guard at least to learns sweeps to escape or finishes in 1 vs 1 and I wouldn't call it ridiculous for self defence, but to hang out on your back and not try to immediateiy get up especially in a self defence situation where others could soccer kick you etc would be dumb and potentially suicidal in alot of situations.

Wasn't wing chun invented by a girl?

It's actually a myth that developed for various reasons. I'm not going into the detailed history that has been researched here but basically it is an allegory for a smaller weaker person being able to beat a larger one.

 

[shincheckin]

Your twisting my argument.
Fist conditioning helps prevent BK injuries to hands but won't stop them getting damaged or broken
Either way it makes elbow blocks more viable and palm stikes more viable and changes the game alot from what u see in a boxing match which is what I was saying and another reason why modern western boxing is not a great fit for BK.

Blocking with your elbow is not illegal in any of the combat sports to my knowledge. If it was practical we would see it being used. At best you will most likely find a misplaced punch hitting someone's elbow and them injuring themselves. I have done it throwing a body hook.

What you won't see is someone throwing elbow strikes into incoming punches like in master wong videos.


WC wouldn't work if they sparred. People sparr and realize it doesn't work and abandon it.

Sparring/fighting is the filter of what works and what doesn't. MMA today is the result of what's been put through the filter.