The Road to Wing Chun applied in Combat Sports

[shincheckin]

No, it is your understanding of martial arts outside your range of familiarity that is bs

Bizaare, that after so much discussion someone could miss the point that badly.

WC training as it is commonly done is limited.
It is the training and most importantly the lack of sparring, not the style.
If WC was trained more like boxing or MT there is no indication it would not be effective.
In fact the WC modified for sport version has already been proven effective numerous times.

Handtrapping and parrying, elbows, straights, hooks and uppercuts and chops all work and when linked together with precision sensitivity at close range mean a devastating fighting system.

Can I see some evidence of WC working where it was designed for, the street.

 

[Sanserif]

So after speaking with you I realized I were talking about 2 different things. Catching the jab vs parrying. I said parry earlier but the correct term would have been catch.

U mean catch like how teofino Lopez likes to do it? Or as defined in this video?

 

[shincheckin]

U mean catch like how teofino Lopez likes to do it? Or as defined in this video?

That's it.

 

[Sanserif]

It depends what you are looking for.
Alot of modern MMA superceeded JKD with cross training to the point where prominent JKD guys like Matt Thornton just identify now as "MMA guys" which I think is a mistake.
There is no need to adopt the mindset that MMA is the be all end all either it is just part of the evolution.

As someone pointed out and I broadly agree, whether you started with WC as base and cross trained or did other arts first then cross trained WC probably the end goal is going to look similar.

The core principles and form that a martial art takes is rooted in a cultural setting just as the sport of MMA is.

For example WC like most standup arts are not really predicated on a wrestler trying to take you down more someone standing with you and attacking unarmed or with a weapon.
Once that problem presents itself you naturally have to adjust the way you practice and fight accordingly to make it work and you find solutions.
Training it more for the medium range rather than the medium-close range would be one natural adjustment of this for WC vs the grappler for example. Not difficult to do but unless you have it in mind you won't train like that.
As well of course learning to fight from the ground or get up, using tactics so you can't be grappled easily. So this is where cross training comes in.

WSL for example was of the view that you cannot really be forced to grapple:

"The situation where you need to wrestle is when both opponents want to grab. Western boxing is supposed to be hitting, but you still see situations where they want to hold on to each other. This is because one of them is scared. If you are scared then you will try to hold onto your opponent. It is very difficult for someone to lock or hold onto you if you know Wing Chun. You can stop the other guy holding or grabbing. If someone grabs you, you will only try to grab back if you are scared. But if you are not scared, then he cannot force you into a wrestling situation"

Based on my understanding of the history of real 'no rules combat' like rough n tumble, this is indeed the case but it doesn't hold true for the restictions of modern combat sports.

We already saw how so many of the TMA's came back when everyone counted them out in the early days of the UFC.
People are still doing it with CMA and with WC now but it only takes one good WC guy to ktfo a high level guy for them to change their tune.

I also don't doubt that good WC is already functional for what it is designed for which is self defence. So if that is your aim then you will train accordingly and jkd has always been self defence oriented more than for competition so of that is the case it is a good fit.

You cannot train for the medium range in wc - not true wingchun anyway because there is no medium range in wc.

With respect to wsl, if he had really said that quote that you put up, he had never experienced how fast is a shoot from a trained college level wrestler of which there are many in the States. Hong Kong in the late 50s and 60s was not exposed to that kind of threat.

Especially when said wrestler is MMA trained, he will chain it with feints and strikes to change level unpredictably.

If he meant judo then I will agree. A proper wc stance as in siu nim tao with proper structure and biomechanics and sensitivity can be extremely difficult to uproot by a throw by a judo trained exponent. However a wrestler who does a single leg or double leg takedown or lift will be able to remove the base altogether from the wingchun fighter.

Incidentally no TMA has really made it as a base in mma and even karate is more of an ancillary art. Those very few like Thompson who use it more prominently are very few indeed.

 

[TheMaster]

You cannot train for the medium range in wc - not true wingchun anyway because there is no medium range in wc.

This is more rubbish and misunderstanding from you.
Of course there is medium range - which can be defined as just outside 'the pocket'.

You really think that they assumed that in a fight everyone would just politely raise their arms and come together to do chi sau?

There are kicks in WC. These are not long range, they are medium range and even can be done close range. This alone already disqualifies your ridiculous idea of there being no medium range.

Further, many of the parries and counters become medium range if one chooses not to step in so much. An easy adjustment that does not really change anything but requires training.
It would be considered more dangerous than fighting at close range since there is less control, but against someone trying to take you down this adjustment may be needed.

I have sparred at this range and can say it is less comfortable than the familar infighting range but can definitely be done and the same principles apply.

With respect to wsl, if he had really said that quote that you put up, he had never experienced how fast is a shoot from a trained college level wrestler of which there are many in the States. Hong Kong in the late 50s and 60s was not exposed to that kind of threat.

Especially when said wrestler is MMA trained, he will chain it with feints and strikes to change level unpredictably.

If he meant judo then I will agree. A proper wc stance as in siu nim tao with proper structure and biomechanics and sensitivity can be extremely difficult to uproot by a throw by a judo trained exponent. However a wrestler who does a single leg or double leg takedown or lift will be able to remove the base altogether from the wingchun fighter.

It's a shame he doesnt elaborate on the quote.
He is likely referring to grappling the upperbody yes.

However he would likely consider a double leg shoot as an invalid method due to the risk of being downward elbowed in the base of skull or spine.

Can I see some evidence of WC working where it was designed for, the street.

You want Hong Kong street fighting footage?
WC has a long history of use in street fights and amongst gangs and triads, so they know that it works it's reputation in that arena is very big, but how much that translates to the type of combat sports we are discussing is a different issue.

 

[Sanserif]

This is more rubbish and misunderstanding from you.
Of course there is medium range - which can be defined as just outside 'the pocket'.

You really think that they assumed that in a fight everyone would just politely raise their arms and come together to do chi sau?

There are kicks in WC. These are not long range, they are medium range and even can be done close range. This alone already disqualifies your ridiculous idea of there being no medium range.

Further, many of the parries and counters become medium range if one chooses not to step in so much. An easy adjustment that does not really change anything but requires training.
It would be considered more dangerous than fighting at close range since there is less control, but against someone trying to take you down this adjustment may be needed.

I have sparred at this range and can say it is less comfortable than the familar infighting range but can definitely be done and the same principles apply.



It's a shame he doesnt elaborate on the quote.
He is likely referring to grappling the upperbody yes.

However he would likely consider a double leg shoot as an invalid method due to the risk of being downward elbowed in the base of skull or spine.



You want Hong Kong street fighting footage?
WC has a long history of use in street fights and amongst gangs and triads, so they know that it works it's reputation in that arena is very big, but how much that translates to the type of combat sports we are discussing is a different issue.

* I have fully explained my position based on the techniques and stance and structure and engine of wc. You admit that wc is close range but your only reply has been to suggest that biu jee contains some techniques that could be used to build a medium range game for wc. I have already answered you fully using the video you linked itself which doesnt even support your use of it.

* attempts to extend the existing close range wc techniques to the medium range result in non-WC permutations forming and a different engine used altogether and weak power and structure developing. Your videos have only proven what I said was right

* the kicks in wc are all close range and meant for the same range as the punches. If you try to use them for longer range that will result in wc stance being compromised ans non- wc outcome resulting.

* firstly I you have ever been the subject of a shoot by a trained and competent wrestler, you simply cannot react fast enough to apply your elbow before you are off your feet. Without a solid base you will not be able to apply the elbow to the spine with any real force anyway.

 

[Dece]

Lot of hate on Leduc but seems more a 'my sport is better than yours' attitude than valid crticism.

You guys are underestimating BK fighting firstly, it's different and needs getting used to.

Here is Hendricks, a guy who went toe to toe with one of the most devastating punchers in MMA in Lawler for 10 rounds, folding like a lawn chair from BK shot to the face.



Lethwei is not the same as MT when you figure in BK punches and headbutts and scoring. There is alot more punching and much less kicks.

Also you're not covinving me a brutal dominating win over Baczynski a guy with 10 UFC fights is not impressive. Seems like he got a whole lot better maybe.

There is obviously money in the sport and with sponsorships and accolades and publcity to be 'the guy' in a national sport.

Again, if it was so easy why are there no high level western MT or MMA guys who have just come in and taken his title? Plenty of them could cross over easily enough.
I have a feeling Baczynski had the same idea as you about it, then he got a rude awakening.

It's not a "my style is better..." argument, I shared the mats with him. Most other fighters don't bother with Lethwei because of several reasons. Most fighters want to challenge themselves, not beat smaller people in the middle of nowhere. Leduc is ducking the competition, he doesn't compete where the high level fighters go because then he would be beaten and become a nobody. He tried with MMA and Sambo and failed.

Another reason that fighters don't to Lethwei is because it's less money in it. The smaller guys fight in Thailand and the bigger guys fight in kickboxing events like Glory.

 

[TheMaster]

* I have fully explained my position based on the techniques and stance and structure and engine of wc. You admit that wc is close range but your only reply has been to suggest that biu jee contains some techniques that could be used to build a medium range game for wc. I have already answered you fully using the video you linked itself which doesnt even support your use of it.

* attempts to extend the existing close range wc techniques to the medium range result in non-WC permutations forming and a different engine used altogether and weak power and structure developing. Your videos have only proven what I said was right

* the kicks in wc are all close range and meant for the same range as the punches. If you try to use them for longer range that will result in wc stance being compromised ans non- wc outcome resulting.

* firstly I you have ever been the subject of a shoot by a trained and competent wrestler, you simply cannot react fast enough to apply your elbow before you are off your feet. Without a solid base you will not be able to apply the elbow to the spine with any real force anyway.

Your claim that the 'engine' changes due to range changes shows misunderstanding. Actually WC is designed to function at medium to close range as entry and intercepting strikes often happen at further distance before the optimum in-fighting range is reached.

Therefore there is already a strong basis for developing the medium range work.

For kicks, they are designed so they can be used at the same range as the punches. To think they dont work at full leg extension or with a step shows misunderstanding of the basic way they function.

Similar to hand positions. Deflection and parrying does not suddenly stop working due to greater range. If you had actually sparred you would know this.
Same with doing any WC methods with a stance turn of the waist which is drilled in numerous WC branches and is medium range as well as adding power, and does not compromise the basic structure.

As long as both feet remain flat and rooted in a similar way as flat footed boxers WC techniques will work at medium range.

For defending wrestling shoots obviously a sprawl is needed, the dangerous downward elbows it opens you up to as well as knees to the head are natural follow ups to this.

 

[listrahtes]

And again master finds someone for his wc circle jerk. <Lmaoo> Its like Ashida Kim and Hayes in the 80s have been reborn.

 

[TheMaster]

It's not a "my style is better..." argument, I shared the mats with him. Most other fighters don't bother with Lethwei because of several reasons. Most fighters want to challenge themselves, not beat smaller people in the middle of nowhere. Leduc is ducking the competition, he doesn't compete where the high level fighters go because then he would be beaten and become a nobody. He tried with MMA and Sambo and failed.

Another reason that fighters don't to Lethwei is because it's less money in it. The smaller guys fight in Thailand and the bigger guys fight in kickboxing events like Glory.

Then why not challenge themselves in fighting Leduc.

Headbutts and BK punching is a different thing so that will take getting used to.

Plus the way people describe him as 'c-list' it shouldn't need a big name guy to beat him or be about big money
Let's see any good level western kickboxer or MT guy of similar size take on the challenge. I don't see why they wouldn't want to do it if it was such easy pickings.

 

[Sanserif]

Your claim that the 'engine' changes due to range changes shows misunderstanding. Actually WC is designed to function at medium to close range as entry and intercepting strikes often happen at further distance before the optimum in-fighting range is reached.

Therefore there is already a strong basis for developing the medium range work.

For kicks, they are designed so they can be used at the same range as the punches. To think they dont work at full leg extension or with a step shows misunderstanding of the basic way they function.

Similar to hand positions. Deflection and parrying does not suddenly stop working due to greater range. If you had actually sparred you would know this.
Same with doing any WC methods with a stance turn of the waist which is drilled in numerous WC branches and is medium range as well as adding power, and does not compromise the basic structure.

As long as both feet remain flat and rooted in a similar way as flat footed boxers WC techniques will work at medium range.

For defending wrestling shoots obviously a sprawl is needed, the dangerous downward elbows it opens you up to as well as knees to the head are natural follow ups to this.

If you take a step and kick, your wc kick is still at the same close range since all you hae done is move your entire base one step and then kick. If you pivot on one foot and kick with the other as in tkd or karate or kick boxing then u r no longer performing w c and your entire wc stance is gone. To perform a wc kick it is always at close range.

If you extend your guard beyond your feet you are unable to perform proper wc parries. There is no structure to withstand much force and you distort your stance in order to do so which may compromise your stability. If you have been doing this in sparring then you are misusing sparring because you are installing bad wc into your muscle memory and what mutant manoeuvre that seems to sort of work in friendly sparring will fail you on the street.

The next time you sprawl try to execute a downward elbow at same time and tell us how you do at it! Firstly you are unable to do it while you are sprawling becausw u r trying to stop him from taking yor feet and secondly if you try to do it immediately afterwards you will lose control of your underhooks and sprawl and he will take you down. Thirdly at all times during the sprawl you do not have the base and connection with the ground to be able to drive much power into the elbow. You do not have any structure at all either because you are sprawling. If you have actually ever sprawled before as a defence to a real takedown you would know this and only tma people having no experience of such advocate the downward elbow. When they demo this technique the uke will usually perform their idea of a double leg which would be totally wrong in form speed power and execution which will allow the tori to demonstrate a nice perfect downward elbow from an unaffected base.

 

[Woldog]

Can Wing Chun defeat @ironkhan57 in a fight?

 

[j123]

Can Wing Chun defeat @ironkhan57 in a fight?

He uses WC in his fights. Vertical counter strikes

 

[aerius]

Can Wing Chun defeat @ironkhan57 in a fight?

That's a good question. Is Anderson Silva a Wing Chun master?

 

[shincheckin]

This is more rubbish and misunderstanding from you.
Of course there is medium range - which can be defined as just outside 'the pocket'.

You really think that they assumed that in a fight everyone would just politely raise their arms and come together to do chi sau?

There are kicks in WC. These are not long range, they are medium range and even can be done close range. This alone already disqualifies your ridiculous idea of there being no medium range.

Further, many of the parries and counters become medium range if one chooses not to step in so much. An easy adjustment that does not really change anything but requires training.
It would be considered more dangerous than fighting at close range since there is less control, but against someone trying to take you down this adjustment may be needed.

I have sparred at this range and can say it is less comfortable than the familar infighting range but can definitely be done and the same principles apply.



It's a shame he doesnt elaborate on the quote.
He is likely referring to grappling the upperbody yes.

However he would likely consider a double leg shoot as an invalid method due to the risk of being downward elbowed in the base of skull or spine.



You want Hong Kong street fighting footage?
WC has a long history of use in street fights and amongst gangs and triads, so they know that it works it's reputation in that arena is very big, but how much that translates to the type of combat sports we are discussing is a different issue.

I don't care if it's Hong Kong or a thug beating up iron street smart khan, or anything else possible.

Your argument is that its not for sport, its for the street.

Let's see some evidence of it working in the street where it was designed for then.

I'm not against wing Chun. In fact I just noticed something in muay thai that this thread actually opened my eyes to. I'll post it later from desktop. In the meantime. I would like to see evidence of WC working where it's designed to work.

 

[Sanserif]

That's a good question. Is Anderson Silva a Wing Chun master?

That's not wc.

 

[TheMaster]

Can Wing Chun defeat @ironkhan57 in a fight?

Could you?

That's a good question. Is Anderson Silva a Wing Chun master?

He trained with Dan Inosanto and yes he is using some hand trapping moves consistent with WC there and even more so in the Bisping fight.
But using elements of WC is not enough in an already skilled fighter like Anderson.
We need to see WC as a base from someone at the top level even if with crosstraining.

 

[TheMaster]

If you take a step and kick, your wc kick is still at the same close range since all you hae done is move your entire base one step and then kick. If you pivot on one foot and kick with the other as in tkd or karate or kick boxing then u r no longer performing w c and your entire wc stance is gone. To perform a wc kick it is always at close range.

If you extend your guard beyond your feet you are unable to perform proper wc parries. There is no structure to withstand much force and you distort your stance in order to do so which may compromise your stability. If you have been doing this in sparring then you are misusing sparring because you are installing bad wc into your muscle memory and what mutant manoeuvre that seems to sort of work in friendly sparring will fail you on the street.

The next time you sprawl try to execute a downward elbow at same time and tell us how you do at it! Firstly you are unable to do it while you are sprawling becausw u r trying to stop him from taking yor feet and secondly if you try to do it immediately afterwards you will lose control of your underhooks and sprawl and he will take you down. Thirdly at all times during the sprawl you do not have the base and connection with the ground to be able to drive much power into the elbow. You do not have any structure at all either because you are sprawling. If you have actually ever sprawled before as a defence to a real takedown you would know this and only tma people having no experience of such advocate the downward elbow. When they demo this technique the uke will usually perform their idea of a double leg which would be totally wrong in form speed power and execution which will allow the tori to demonstrate a nice perfect downward elbow from an unaffected base.

Wrong!

Kicks done at full extension are medium range, end of.

As I mentioned, flat footed footwork similar to boxing is fully compatable with WC structure and can be done at medium range.

You downward elbow after a successful sprawl not during.

 

[Sanserif]

Wrong!

Kicks done at full extension are medium range, end of.

As I mentioned, flat footed footwork similar to boxing is fully compatable with WC structure and can be done at medium range.

You downward elbow after a successful sprawl not during.

Kicks done from wc stance the wc way are close range. They can only become medium range if you adopt kickboxing or karate style technique and kick out of wc stance.

Footwork done the wc way is not boxing footwork whether flat footed or not. Adopting boxing footwork will mean abandoning wc stance when you are in a sprawl position you are unable to use a downward elbow strike with any real force and if u tried u would compromise your underhooks and control of the wrestler beneath u and he will escape your control.

 

[TheMaster]

U mean catch like how teofino Lopez likes to do it? Or as defined in this video?

This is alot of overlap here with WC approach.
However boxers will not be as experienced doing this without gloves at speed.