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The Road to Wing Chun applied in Combat Sports

The master, I was curious which lineage of wing chun you practiced because I know there is a lot of disagreement even amongst the various yip man lineages. Some are more willing to break wing chun principles to make it more combat sport effective. Take Sifu Wang Zhi Peng. He used his wing chun in the ring and beat some Muay Thai or boxers or something like that. That’s what I remember from watching one of those fight documentaries. He practiced Chinese wrestling and incorporated it into his wing chun.



His student, Jai Harmen, mixes Sifu peng’s wing chun with his previous martial arts. Here is some sparring footage with a fellow wing chunner. He also sparred at an mma gym and even sparred a former mma fighter. I don’t believe Sifu harmen has trained Muay Thai or boxing but I think he has sparred against them.

Some can argue that Sifu Harmen is athletic and would probably be even better if he trained Muay Thai or boxing instead of wing chun. I actually kind of agree because I left traditional martial arts to learn combat sports and I definitely felt combat sports does make a person tougher and have a repeatable skill set that can be used under pressure.







Wang zhi Peng has very nice throws and is very explosive. His w c seems more external though and that's usually the case for those wc guys who mix it up with other arts.

Harman displayed hardly any wc in any of the fights in those clips to me. He likes to raise his rear hand up in a wc like pose but he uses it to parry like boxing parries and all his punches and footwork are more akin to boxing style. He definitely I suspect has trained in muay thai and either karate or tkd before from his moves.
 
Dave Leduc trains in Lethwei in Myanmar, and dominates by virtue of being a tall C-list Muay Thai fighter, which instantly puts him at a big advantage against Burmese boxers, who don't have the same quality of training nor the luxury of being 6 foot tall in openweight bouts.

He has a background in sanda, and he claims he has no muay thai in his style at all but it's plainly a lie, because he's trying to distance himself from Muay Thai to justify his success in Lethwei.

Too true. In fact I think i read he has 3 years of training and fighting in thailand before he did lethwei.
 
Like I have said to you before, one of the big differences between your views and mine is your utter lack of discretion in how you want to draw similarities. You go so general so as to make classification almost pointless - your logic is - boxing parry = a kind of parry. WC parry =also a kind of parry. Therefore boxing parry = wc parry

For me, such overly wide generalizations are useless to make because they do not get us anywhere towards greater learning and understanding. Every striking martial art and sport in the world has punches and parries. That equation you drew is also applicable to all of them. That level of generalisation is too wide to be of any use to us.

For me, the body mechanics and structure and combative use of a move has to be the same betore I can say it is similar. In all three parameters, boxing parties are not similar to w c parries. For instance using the example u gave of huen sau and circular parries. The body mechanics and structure are different because the circular parry absorbs the impact of the blow and turns it away to the outside using a chicken wing motion. On the other hand huen sau has a fixed unmoving elbow with only the forearm and wrist rotating in a corkscrewing action. Their combative use is different also - thecircular parry blocks a long range strike usually a jab at long range. The huen sau is used as a controlling the other side's arm manoeuvre when the combatants are already in parrying rage and the opponent's arm has gained the centreline on the inside or outside and so the defender uses hien sau to corkscrew from the outside to the inside or outside in order to win the battle for the centreline and counter strike the opponent. The huen sau is totally ineffective to block a long range jab. Hence how can we compare one to the other usefully without making any kind of classification pointlessly wide?

No, I am seeing the obvious very large parrallels and convergence as well as the differences.
Your use of the nonsense term 'boxing parries' and 'WC parrries' shows this most clearly.
You narrowly and wrongly set up a very fixed and limited criteria, then attempt to label everything through that lens and miss the larger principles and engine on which it is running.
Such as when you tried to say boxing only uses the palm to parry when actually, like WC they can use forearm also.
I am quite sure in the pure boxing world we will find examples of many boxers who do a low elbow parry as well as from close range.
So for you they will now be doing 'WC parries'...then 'boxing parries'...it is an unecessary and confused way of thinking.
In the modern cross training era when everyone looks for common principles in arts this way of thinking is even more strange.

We can see yes there are significant difference in WC and boxing in the training methods and way of developing attributes and some mechanics. But there is much overlap also and parrying is one area they converge alot because the principals of parrying are universal regardless of the underlying 'style' the person is employing.

The overall intent and execution of the moves is basically the same in the majority of examples of how they parry.

I have highlighted some examples of the differences- that WC has the low elbow and that the 'chicken wing' position would be considered wrong for a huen sau parry. These are also primarily for close range yes.
But you seem to think that WC cant be adapted for medium range which is not true. There is gor sau and sparring for that. When this happens, there is a natural evolution of which methdos are used and when they are adapted for longer range and for different types of punces they will end up varying from what you'd see in chi sau.

No one said the entire system and all possible movements are in the forms , that would be impossible and would assume we were accounting for every possible attack like a Hung gar swinging punch or a looping overhand.
When these alternate attacks are met the WC training you have done and principles will adapt to create a solution.

So for example keeping a low elbow is always preferred. But it is also much easier against centreline vertical fist punches where the elbow of the incoming punch is also low.

If say your right arm is on the outside and a left straight punch comes with a horizontal fist and high elbow and you need to parry it to your outside, the movement will need to be adapted as the position will not allow for you to maintain a fully low elbow. You would have to 'flare' or at least raise your elbow a bit to make the parry work but this does not mean mean you are now doing a 'boxing parry' you are still using your chi sau sensitivity and other WC attributes you have developed to make the parry work in that position and you would immediately try to revert to a low elbow position on the follow ups.
In fact this is why the elbow is flared in the boxing vid example. Against a low elbow punch I doubt they would flare it up like that and they wouldn't need to.

You are mistaking the WC methds which are principles in action, for 'fixed techniques' which is a wrong understanding.They almost always show WC vs WC in the forms and in chi sau but against other styles or ways of punching the techniques will vary although the common principles remain.
 
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No, I am seeing the obvious very large parrallels and convergence as well as the differences.
Your use of the nonsense term 'boxing parries' and 'WC parrries' shows this most clearly.
You narrowly and wrongly set up a very fixed and limited criteria, then attempt to label everything through that lens and miss the larger principles and engine on which it is running.
Such as when you tried to say boxing only uses the palm to parry when actually, like WC they can use forearm also.
I am quite sure in the pure boxing world we will find examples of many boxers who do a low elbow parry as well as from close range.
So for you they will now be doing 'WC parries'...then 'boxing parries'...it is an unecessary and confused way of thinking.
In the modern cross training era when everyone looks for common principles in arts this way of thinking is even more strange.

We can see yes there are significant difference in WC and boxing in the training methods and way of developing attributes and some mechanics. But there is much overlap also and parrying is one area they converge alot because the principals of parrying are universal regardless of the underlying 'style' the person is employing.

The overall intent and execution of the moves is basically the same in the majority of examples of how they parry.

I have highlighted some examples of the differences- that WC has the low elbow and that the 'chicken wing' position would be considered wrong for a huen sau parry. These are also primarily for close range yes.
But you seem to think that WC cant be adapted for medium range which is not true. There is gor sau and sparring for that. When this happens, there is a natural evolution of which methdos are used and when they are adapted for longer range and for different types of punces they will end up varying from what you'd see in chi sau.
No one said the entire system and all possible movements are in the forms , that would be impossible and would assume we were accounting for every possible attack like a Hung gar swinging punch or a looping overhand.
When these alternate attacks are met the WC training you have done and principles will adapt to create a solution.

So for example keeping a low elbow is always preferred. But it is also much easier against centreline vertical fist punches where the elbow of the incoming punch is also low.

If say your right arm is on the outside and a left straight punch comes with a horizontal fist and high elbow and you need to parry it to your outside, the movement will need to be adapted as the position will not allow for you to maintain a low elbow. You would have to flare your elbow bit to make the parry work this does not mean mean you are now doing a 'boxing parry' you are still using your chi sau sensitivity and other WC attributes you have developed to make the parry work in that position and you would immediately try to revert to a low elbow position on the follow ups.
In fact this is why the elbow is flared in the boxing vid example. Against a low elbow punch I doubt they would flare it up like that and they wouldn't need to.

You are mistaking the WC methds which are principles in action, for 'fixed techniques' which is a wrong understanding.They almost always show WC vs WC in the forms and in chi sau but against other styles or ways of punching the techniques will vary although the common principles remain.
no.
 
Dave Leduc trains in Lethwei in Myanmar, and dominates by virtue of being a tall C-list Muay Thai fighter, which instantly puts him at a big advantage against Burmese boxers, who don't have the same quality of training nor the luxury of being 6 foot tall in openweight bouts.

He has a background in sanda, and he claims he has no muay thai in his style at all but it's plainly a lie, because he's trying to distance himself from Muay Thai to justify his success in Lethwei.

I wouldn't call him a 'c-list MT guy'

He has a very impressive win over Baczynski, a guy with good standup and 10 UFC bouts.



If he was that bad, surely no issue for an elite western MT guy to just come in and take his title?

Lethwei has a different focus than MT, more punches which are BK and less kicking. I prefer watching it alot more.

Apparantly he claims a JKD background as well but I don't know how much he trained in this.
 
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The master, I was curious which lineage of wing chun you practiced because I know there is a lot of disagreement even amongst the various yip man lineages. Some are more willing to break wing chun principles to make it more combat sport effective. Take Sifu Wang Zhi Peng. He used his wing chun in the ring and beat some Muay Thai or boxers or something like that. That’s what I remember from watching one of those fight documentaries. He practiced Chinese wrestling and incorporated it into his wing chun.



His student, Jai Harmen, mixes Sifu peng’s wing chun with his previous martial arts. Here is some sparring footage with a fellow wing chunner. He also sparred at an mma gym and even sparred a former mma fighter. I don’t believe Sifu harmen has trained Muay Thai or boxing but I think he has sparred against them.

Some can argue that Sifu Harmen is athletic and would probably be even better if he trained Muay Thai or boxing instead of wing chun. I actually kind of agree because I left traditional martial arts to learn combat sports and I definitely felt combat sports does make a person tougher and have a repeatable skill set that can be used under pressure.






My lineage has been mainly WSL.

I think those videos are great and it is nice to see a cross trained WC guy using it as part of his overall fighting approach.
Whether he would be as or more effective in the ring with a MT background is debatable. To an extent as many have said we are talking different routes to being well rounded but WC will have it's advantages and disadvantages.

Wang Zhi Peng understands this. CMA has actually always been well rounded with chi na grappling as well as striking. So why would they not embrace the MMA revolution and WC can be a good base with the focus on sensitivity which is a very core attribute that can translate to striking or grappling.

I don't doubt that doing more sparring and training in combat sports made you more functional and tougher. This is why I would like to more widely introduce the same for WC.
I truly think it is the most complete standup self defence art and even for this purpose sparring will help it.

The question of what is being 'true' to WC principles depends on interpretation which is where alot of the disagreements are with.

My feeling is that even if we had video of WSL from his 70 beimo challenge fights it wouldn't all 'look like' what we imagine WC to be in films or whatever. But it would be still be internally consistent and be based on core principle of his training but adapted to the opponent being faced.
As I have said, the version of WC we see practiced most is vs other WC. Against different styles the system will adapt so of course will look different in application but this doesn't mean the principles are and core system are not being used.
 
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I wouldn't call him a 'c-list MT guy'
If he was that bad, surely no issue for an elite western MT guy to just come in and take his title?
We have at least one Canadian fella here, with enough MT competition experience :-). Let’s ask his (and his fellow practitioners from Canada) opinion on Dave Leduc’s performance. @j123, we need you, brother!
 
No, I am seeing the obvious very large parrallels and convergence as well as the differences.
Your use of the nonsense term 'boxing parries' and 'WC parrries' shows this most clearly.
You narrowly and wrongly set up a very fixed and limited criteria, then attempt to label everything through that lens and miss the larger principles and engine on which it is running.
Such as when you tried to say boxing only uses the palm to parry when actually, like WC they can use forearm also.
I am quite sure in the pure boxing world we will find examples of many boxers who do a low elbow parry as well as from close range.
So for you they will now be doing 'WC parries'...then 'boxing parries'...it is an unecessary and confused way of thinking.
In the modern cross training era when everyone looks for common principles in arts this way of thinking is even more strange.

We can see yes there are significant difference in WC and boxing in the training methods and way of developing attributes and some mechanics. But there is much overlap also and parrying is one area they converge alot because the principals of parrying are universal regardless of the underlying 'style' the person is employing.

The overall intent and execution of the moves is basically the same in the majority of examples of how they parry.

I have highlighted some examples of the differences- that WC has the low elbow and that the 'chicken wing' position would be considered wrong for a huen sau parry. These are also primarily for close range yes.
But you seem to think that WC cant be adapted for medium range which is not true. There is gor sau and sparring for that. When this happens, there is a natural evolution of which methdos are used and when they are adapted for longer range and for different types of punces they will end up varying from what you'd see in chi sau.

No one said the entire system and all possible movements are in the forms , that would be impossible and would assume we were accounting for every possible attack like a Hung gar swinging punch or a looping overhand.
When these alternate attacks are met the WC training you have done and principles will adapt to create a solution.

So for example keeping a low elbow is always preferred. But it is also much easier against centreline vertical fist punches where the elbow of the incoming punch is also low.

If say your right arm is on the outside and a left straight punch comes with a horizontal fist and high elbow and you need to parry it to your outside, the movement will need to be adapted as the position will not allow for you to maintain a fully low elbow. You would have to 'flare' or at least raise your elbow a bit to make the parry work but this does not mean mean you are now doing a 'boxing parry' you are still using your chi sau sensitivity and other WC attributes you have developed to make the parry work in that position and you would immediately try to revert to a low elbow position on the follow ups.
In fact this is why the elbow is flared in the boxing vid example. Against a low elbow punch I doubt they would flare it up like that and they wouldn't need to.

You are mistaking the WC methds which are principles in action, for 'fixed techniques' which is a wrong understanding.They almost always show WC vs WC in the forms and in chi sau but against other styles or ways of punching the techniques will vary although the common principles remain.

You really seem to like to argue for the sake of arguing and to defend the indefensible.

"No, I am seeing the obvious very large parrallels and convergence as well as the differences."

Other than the practically useless factoid that they are all parries in the very broad sense that they use the hand to deflect punches, I have already established using your own example of huen sau vs circular boxig parry that they have different body mechanics and structure and uses. So there is no real convergence nor parallel.


"You narrowly and wrongly set up a very fixed and limited criteria"

I dont know what to say if body mechanics, structure and combative use are considered to be fixed or limited criteria?!!! If you disqualify where and how it moves and how it drives its energy from, how and ahwre it gets its support and strength and ability to.withdtand pressure from and what is it used for - there are no other meaningful criteria left! Whixh may be apparently what you want in your quixotic quest to argue for wc's use in sports fighting without needing to totally revise the art and retool it...

"Such as when you tried to say boxing only uses the palm to parry when actually, like WC they can use forearm also....."

Any use of the forearm would be secondary in nature to the hand and operate according to similar principles as when the hand is used so what is the difference?!

"But there is much overlap also and parrying is one area they converge alot because the principals of parrying are universal regardless of the underlying 'style' the person is employing."

I have already shown you that the principles are entirely different and to treat them as if they are the same or substitutes for each other in use is just wrong.

"The overall intent and execution of the moves is basically the same in the majority of examples of how they parry."

I have already demonstrated using the precise examples you cited why the intent and execution are entirely different.

"These are also primarily for close range yes.
But you seem to think that WC cant be adapted for medium range which is not true. There is gor sau and sparring for that. "

Gor sau just neans free sparring so you used the terms gor sau and sparring giving the wrong impression as if they are referring to two things when they just refer to the same thing.

Saying that sparring can adapt techniques that you admit are designed for close range is not reasonable and doesnt work. Its like saying I just learned boxing and I will now spar to learn how to use those techniques on how to use a sword. We drill techniques to get our muscle memory ingrained with the technique and how to use it for the purpose and range it is designed for and hen we spar to do it in real time against a resistant opponent. But it is not reasonable to expect that we can transform a close range technique into a long range with free sparring when we dont even know how to do it iin long range n the first place. What is going to happen 99 per cent of the time is that we will violate the structural limitations of that technique because it was predicated on a different range and end up with a weak and ineffective move that turns into a bad habit that you use in a fight and it gets you countered and ko in the ring - which is probably a good description actually of why wc fighters usually fail in the ring or octagon.

"So for example keeping a low elbow is always preferred. But it is also much easier against centreline vertical fist punches where the elbow of the incoming punch is also low."

This is precisely one of.the reasons why I am saying that wc needs to be restructured and re built from ground up. Its mechanics are designed to fight other CMA that tend to strike to the core and that stay in the same range. It is not designed for eg to fight boxing where most of the intent is to KO by striking the head and therefore the punches are chambered and loaded and launched higher up from the shoulder because the head is the primary target. But adapting wc without rethinking the entire biomechanical paradigm won't cut it because bolting on a adjustment without finding a way to change the underpinnings of the system will result in a solution that fails in a fight because it does not really work.


"If say your right arm is on the outside and a left straight punch comes with a horizontal fist and high elbow and you need to parry it to your outside, the movement will need to be adapted as the position will not allow for you to maintain a fully low elbow. You would have to 'flare' or at least raise your elbow a bit to make the parry work but this does not mean mean you are now doing a 'boxing parry' you are still using your chi sau sensitivity and other WC attributes you have developed to make the parry work in that position and you would immediately try to revert to a low elbow position on the follow ups.
In fact this is why the elbow is flared in the boxing vid example. Against a low elbow punch I doubt they would flare it up like that and they wouldn't need to.""

The elbow is flared in a boxing parry because boxing does not use the immovable elbow as a vital structural pillar in the skeleton of wc stance so to speak and does not employ the elbow aa the vital conduit of force between the body and the limb. Western boxing uses the shoulder for the conduit and does not require the elbow to be down all the time for structure. Flaring he elbow in wc however will completely destroy the integrity of the whole system and the wc stance will collapse under heavy pressure from the opponent and he cannot resist a heavy strike without his parrying limb collapsing because the limb is supported by the elbow that is downward projecting. Reputations aside - if any wc exponent flares or chicken wings his elbow while doing any wc move, he has bad wc technique and is likely using his athleticism or strength or size to get away with it but against better opponents he will come a cropper. This is an absolute given. Internal power and solidity in wc comes from real mastery of the 3 unarmed forms of wc which include stance and technique. From correct structure comes complete power. Why do I need to even repeat this basic tenet of wc if you say that you are already having a higher level knowledge of wc?
 
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I wouldn't call him a 'c-list MT guy'

He has a very impressive win over Baczynski, a guy with good standup and 10 UFC bouts.



If he was that bad, surely no issue for an elite western MT guy to just come in and take his title?

Lethwei has a different focus than MT, more punches which are BK and less kicking. I prefer watching it alot more.

Apparantly he claims a JKD background as well but I don't know how much he trained in this.


Lethwei is basically muay thai in force generation, technique form and stance except they fight without gloves and they allow head butts. Saying that u notice more punches relatively speaking and less kicks is a matter of cultural preference but in the things that count which differentiate one martial system from another lethwei is basically a close brother to muay thai.
 
Did you just WC counter me.

I think he would regard that as a boxing counter since there seems little difference between boxing and wc to him. Or any art and wc for that matter...
 
"No, I am seeing the obvious very large parrallels and convergence as well as the differences."

Other than the practically useless factoid that they are all parries in the very broad sense that they use the hand to deflect punches, I have already established using your own example of huen sau vs circular boxig parry that they have different body mechanics and structure and uses. So there is no real convergence nor parallel.


"You narrowly and wrongly set up a very fixed and limited criteria"

I dont know what to say if body mechanics, structure and combative use are considered to be fixed or limited criteria?!!! If you disqualify where and how it moves and how it drives its energy from, how and ahwre it gets its support and strength and ability to.withdtand pressure from and what is it used for - there are no other meaningful criteria left! Whixh may be apparently what you want in your quixotic quest to argue for wc's use in sports fighting without needing to totally revise the art and retool it...

"Such as when you tried to say boxing only uses the palm to parry when actually, like WC they can use forearm also....."

Any use of the forearm would be secondary in nature to the hand and operate according to similar principles as when the hand is used so what is the difference?!

"But there is much overlap also and parrying is one area they converge alot because the principals of parrying are universal regardless of the underlying 'style' the person is employing."

I have already shown you that the principles are entirely different and to treat them as if they are the same or substitutes for each other in use is just wrong.

"The overall intent and execution of the moves is basically the same in the majority of examples of how they parry."

I have already demonstrated using the precise examples you cited why the intent and execution are entirely different.

"These are also primarily for close range yes.
But you seem to think that WC cant be adapted for medium range which is not true. There is gor sau and sparring for that. "

Gor sau just neans free sparring so you used the terms gor sau and sparring giving the wrong impression as if they are referring to two things when they just refer to the same thing.

Saying that sparring can adapt techniques that you admit are designed for close range is not reasonable and doesnt work. Its like saying I just learned boxing and I will now spar to learn how to use those techniques on how to use a sword. We drill techniques to get our muscle memory ingrained with the technique and how to use it for the purpose and range it is designed for and hen we spar to do it in real time against a resistant opponent. But it is not reasonable to expect that we can transform a close range technique into a long range with free sparring when we dont even know how to do it iin long range n the first place. What is going to happen 99 per cent of the time is that we will violate the structural limitations of that technique because it was predicated on a different range and end up with a weak and ineffective move that turns into a bad habit that you use in a fight and it gets you countered and ko in the ring - which is probably a good description actually of why wc fighters usually fail in the ring or octagon.

"So for example keeping a low elbow is always preferred. But it is also much easier against centreline vertical fist punches where the elbow of the incoming punch is also low."

This is precisely one of.the reasons why I am saying that wc needs to be restructured and re built from ground up. Its mechanics are designed to fight other CMA that tend to strike to the core and that stay in the same range. It is not designed for eg to fight boxing where most of the intent is to KO by striking the head and therefore the punches are chambered and loaded and launched higher up from the shoulder because the head is the primary target. But adapting wc without rethinking the entire biomechanical paradigm won't cut it because bolting on a adjustment without finding a way to change the underpinnings of the system will result in a solution that fails in a fight because it does not really work.


"If say your right arm is on the outside and a left straight punch comes with a horizontal fist and high elbow and you need to parry it to your outside, the movement will need to be adapted as the position will not allow for you to maintain a fully low elbow. You would have to 'flare' or at least raise your elbow a bit to make the parry work but this does not mean mean you are now doing a 'boxing parry' you are still using your chi sau sensitivity and other WC attributes you have developed to make the parry work in that position and you would immediately try to revert to a low elbow position on the follow ups.
In fact this is why the elbow is flared in the boxing vid example. Against a low elbow punch I doubt they would flare it up like that and they wouldn't need to.""

The elbow is flared in a boxing parry because boxing does not use the immovable elbow as a vital structural pillar in the skeleton of wc stance so to speak and does not employ the elbow aa the vital conduit of force between the body and the limb. Western boxing uses the shoulder for the conduit and does not require the elbow to be down all the time for structure. Flaring he elbow in wc however will completely destroy the integrity of the whole system and the wc stance will collapse under heavy pressure from the opponent and he cannot resist a heavy strike without his parrying limb collapsing because the limb is supported by the elbow that is downward projecting. Reputations aside - if any wc exponent flares or chicken wings his elbow while doing any wc move, he has bad wc technique and is likely using his athleticism or strength or size to get away with it but against better opponents he will come a cropper. This is an absolute given. Internal power and solidity in wc comes from real mastery of the 3 unarmed forms of wc which include stance and technique. From correct structure comes complete power. Why do I need to even repeat this basic tenet of wc if you say that you are already having a higher level knowledge of wc?

You haven't shown much of anything other than give a wrong definition of parrying in both WC and boxing, and then try to salvage the situation by more picking straws and word games. Few if any here would agree with you, that the fundamentals of parrrying are not broadly universal and can easily be seen for convergence notwithstanding the expected differences of rules and variables of application in the respective disciplines.

Luckily, we don't care much for the crticism of people with very limited WC training, trying to dispute us putting WC to use, using WC principles and engine, and effectively adapting it to combat sports vs other styles whole adhering to the core principles and techniques of the system.
Likewise for integrating it with other arts in the cross training era, and the further natural evolution that will involve.
 
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You haven't shown much of anything other than give a wrong definition of parrying in both WC and boxing, and then try to salvage the situation by more picking straws and word games. Few if any here would agree with you, that the fundamentals of parrrying are not broadly universal and can easily be seen for convergence notwithstanding the expected differences of rules and variables of application in the respective disciplines.

Luckily, we don't care much for the crticism of people with very limited WC training, trying to dispute us putting WC to use, using WC principles and engine, and effectively adapting it to combat sports vs other styles whole adhering to the core principles and techniques of the system.
Likewise for integrating it with other arts in the cross training era, and the further natural evolution that will involve.

You can try to recharacterise or dress it up any way you want but the illogicality and lack of bases of what you are saying here is self evident and speak for itself.
 
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He has a background in sanda, and he claims he has no muay thai in his style at all but it's plainly a lie, because he's trying to distance himself from Muay Thai to justify his success in Lethwei.

Leduc had an extensive mma and muay thai (he trained and fought in thailand) background before he did lethwei.

We have at least one Canadian fella here, with enough MT competition experience :). Let’s ask his (and his fellow practitioners from Canada) opinion on Dave Leduc’s performance. @j123, we need you, brother!

I had an interest in Lethwei because the ruleset, elbow but also BK makes it different enough from MT and therefore gives potential for more effective use of WC approach with no gloves.

This thread might just go into meltdown at this point if we introduce the subject of Leduc and also discuss his JKD (and thus some WC) background.
Actually it fits, since we have said the trapping and parrying from WC has overlap with MT and lethwei and adds improved sensitivity to this.

The BK format of lethwei lends itself to this more .

Here is what Leduc had to say on his training:

https://thebodylockmma.com/lethwei/a-royal-portrait-dave-leduc-king-of-lethwei/

When I first joined Tiger Muay Thai I got a lot of s***,” he says. “The manager there was really old-school and didn’t like my style of fighting. I was coming from a Jeet Kune Do style so a lot of spinning attacks and side-kicks to the body. So in my Muay Thai fights, I wasn’t really fighting Muay Thai at all – it was unpredictable stuff but not so good for their points system.

“He actually pulled me from a big tournament saying, ‘you’re not good enough, you’re going to lose.’ Which was weird because I was knocking everybody out before that. But first-round knockouts aren’t good for gambling industry over there, you have to wait until the second round to give people a chance to bet.”

He does fight with an unpredictable style that does not look like typical MT at all, it seems it is his own fusion style with JKD, Sanda and MT.

Dave Leduc and his JKD Sifu Patrick Marcil demoing some WC/JKD trapping used effectively in Lethwei.
You can observe alot of it is the exact same stuff pretty much as the vid I posted earlier of WC parrying and handtraps.



Waiting for "it's just MT", "its all 'boxing", "it's not really from WC" etc etc

Reality- yet more evidence of WC techniques and principles working, and in conditions such as no gloves it will be enhanced more so.
<{jackyeah}>
 
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My lineage has been mainly WSL.

I think those videos are great and it is nice to see a cross trained WC guy using it as part of his overall fighting approach.
Whether he would be as or more effective in the ring with a MT background is debatable. To an extent as many have said we are talking different routes to being well rounded but WC will have it's advantages and disadvantages.

Wang Zhi Peng understands this. CMA has actually always been well rounded with chi na grappling as well as striking. So why would they not embrace the MMA revolution and WC can be a good base with the focus on sensitivity which is a very core attribute that can translate to striking or grappling.

I don't doubt that doing more sparring and training in combat sports made you more functional and tougher. This is why I would like to more widely introduce the same for WC.
I truly think it is the most complete standup self defence art and even for this purpose sparring will help it.

The question of what is being 'true' to WC principles depends on interpretation which is where alot of the disagreements are with.

My feeling is that even if we had video of WSL from his 70 beimo challenge fights it wouldn't all 'look like' what we imagine WC to be in films or whatever. But it would be still be internally consistent and be based on core principle of his training but adapted to the opponent being faced.
As I have said, the version of WC we see practiced most is vs other WC. Against different styles the system will adapt so of course will look different in application but this doesn't mean the principles are and core system are not being used.

Yeah, even though i don’t practice wing chun anymore, I always hope somebody functionalizes it and makes it work. I do think the best martial art for a person is a martial art that person loves to do and never gives it up. I always like to believe that ultimately, all martial arts will arrive at the same destination if the practice is perfected. And even if we can’t perfect it, that journey can be quite fulfilling. I’m just not good enough to be the one to do it.

Check out this old wing chun competition footage. I think there is a lot of wing chun flavor in these fights. I know it’s wing chun vs wing chun but it’s still pretty good.

It seems like this Sifu has crossed trained in various marital arts and is even a bjj black belt.

What are your thoughts about jkd that uses wing chun as part of its base? I know some jkd guys eventually learn wing chun and this seems reverse of wing chun guys cross training after their learn wing chun
 
I wouldn't call him a 'c-list MT guy'

He has a very impressive win over Baczynski, a guy with good standup and 10 UFC bouts.



If he was that bad, surely no issue for an elite western MT guy to just come in and take his title?

Lethwei has a different focus than MT, more punches which are BK and less kicking. I prefer watching it alot more.

Apparantly he claims a JKD background as well but I don't know how much he trained in this.


Yes that's C-List. He literally only fought in the phuket stadiums against tuk tuk drivers. His biggest name win is an unranked MMA fighter who had never fought in Lethwei. He might potentially be better than he's given credit for but he has literally never fought a good striker. Lethwei is an entertaining sport and I love how the lack of gloves changes the clinch, but it doesn't really produce top level strikers, and Tway Ma Shaung (the actual best Lethwei fighter) had already been retired by the time Leduc came around.

There's a reason he isn't testing himself in Kard Cheuk, and why is anyone other than C-list MMA and Muay Thai fighters for the massive payout of literally just $3,000 at the very top of the sport.



I had an interest in Lethwei because the ruleset, elbow but also BK makes it different enough from MT and therefore gives potential for more effective use of WC approach with no gloves.

This thread might just go into meltdown at this point if we introduce the subject of Leduc and also discuss his JKD (and thus some WC) background.
Actually it fits, since we have said the trapping and parrying from WC has overlap with MT and lethwei and adds improved sensitivity to this.

The BK format of lethwei lends itself to this more .

Here is what Leduc had to say on his training:

https://thebodylockmma.com/lethwei/a-royal-portrait-dave-leduc-king-of-lethwei/

When I first joined Tiger Muay Thai I got a lot of s***,” he says. “The manager there was really old-school and didn’t like my style of fighting. I was coming from a Jeet Kune Do style so a lot of spinning attacks and side-kicks to the body. So in my Muay Thai fights, I wasn’t really fighting Muay Thai at all – it was unpredictable stuff but not so good for their points system.

“He actually pulled me from a big tournament saying, ‘you’re not good enough, you’re going to lose.’ Which was weird because I was knocking everybody out before that. But first-round knockouts aren’t good for gambling industry over there, you have to wait until the second round to give people a chance to bet.”

He does fight with an unpredictable style that does not look like typical MT at all, it seems it is his own fusion style with JKD, Sanda and MT.

Dave Leduc and his JKD Sifu Patrick Marcil demoing some WC/JKD trapping used effectively in Lethwei.
You can observe alot of it is the exact same stuff pretty much as the vid I posted earlier of WC parrying and handtraps.



Waiting for "it's just MT", "its all 'boxing", "it's not really from WC" etc etc

Reality- yet more evidence of WC techniques and principles working, and in conditions such as no gloves it will be enhanced more so.

<{jackyeah}>


Why are you incapable of understanding, that everyone acknowledges those principles work, it's just the fact that they are done in a billion other styles that do them better? Everyone knows that hand traps work, every Nak Muay, Boxer and MMA fighter already do them. Wing Chun just doesn't do it efficiently.

Case and point, those 'JKD concepts' are already IN Lethwei, because funnily enough the guys who fight for real bare knuckle actually thought of that. Trapping as a concept isn't some new undiscovered thing. It's just that Wing Chun doesn't do it well.

This whole thread is you denying the efficiency of other martial arts and then piggy backing off of them. Your whole line of argument depends on argueing against a claim that only exists in your mind. You're practically hallucinating.

Also lol at the idea of Tiger Muay Thai's manager being old school. Because Valentina Shevchenko is suuuch a purist, it seems more likely that Leduc was getting shit for his attitude.
 
We have at least one Canadian fella here, with enough MT competition experience :). Let’s ask his (and his fellow practitioners from Canada) opinion on Dave Leduc’s performance. @j123, we need you, brother!
Lol he's a failed MMA fighter (from Tristar) who moved to MT, did poorly there then jumped ship to a shallow sport where he wins by outsizing everyone (similar to these successful WC guys on YT. All seem to tower over their opponents significantly). He moved to a low stacked sport in the slimmest division of size. 6'2 vs 5'5rs in their version of heavyweight where there's only like 4 ppl in that division.

Dude stays relevant by trash talking MT fighters on IG and Conor antics whenever he can. He's only gotten traction because of typical Rogan ignorance in MMA that appeals to trends and low hanging fruit for casual fans
 
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I wouldn't call him a 'c-list MT guy'

He has a very impressive win over Baczynski, a guy with good standup and 10 UFC bouts.



If he was that bad, surely no issue for an elite western MT guy to just come in and take his title?

Lethwei has a different focus than MT, more punches which are BK and less kicking. I prefer watching it alot more.

Apparantly he claims a JKD background as well but I don't know how much he trained in this.


I've been in Thailand the same time at TMT as him before he went to Burma and became a "Lethwei star". He was a nobody and could never beat anyone his own since. Was an Iranian there also, same height but 1 or 2 weightclasses above Leduc because he had muscles. That Iranian kicked his ass all the time.

It's easy for him to rack up wins when he's bigger than anyone over there in Asia. Put him in organisations like Glory or even in a local event in Holland and he would get destroyed.

He also tried to become famous through Sambo but failed miserably because his lack of grappling skills. Lethwei was his easiest pick get famous.
 
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