The Road to Wing Chun applied in Combat Sports

[Woldog]

For WC in the ring, the pace will be slower, footwork more mobile at range and use of the wider variety of WC attacks including uppercut and hooks.
So the issue is there are really two 'versions' of WC and the strategy is being applied in the wrong setting. We need to see a sport version for the ring which yes, can learn some things from ring sports about fighting at more range.

Can't be any slower than the training videos we see lmao.

 

[Sanserif]

Your theory is interesting but I see little evidence of it. In Escrima the weapons are taught first and empty hand last.
In WC it is empty hand first and weapons last. So unless there was a historical reversal where the double knives were originally taught first it wouldn't make sense.

But your points about monitoring the other hand to control a weapon arm and an attitude of not being hit at all make sense for armed combat and is why there is a traditional cross training of WC and Escrima.

Even if your idea is partially true, it would explain not why WC "doesn't work", but rather that it isn't for sport.
I have explicitly avoided this angle because this is about adapting WC in combat sports with rules and because it provokes the usual comments about "illegal strikes".

Buy let's take your comments at face value, that weapons were taught first.
Then this could explain the rapids fire approach of styles like WC and Southern Praying Mantis to finish the fight very quickly and brutally at close range.
There is no time to get into a 'fight' or to jab and move.
It is in and finish.
From this mentality, from a descending heirarchy of attacks starting with weapons there are many empty hand tools that can end the encounter fast at that range aside from punches.
Clavicle grab, chops, finger strikes, elbows etc as well as punches.
When you add these attacks, new angles become available and new ways to hit that you won't see in the ring but you do in WC training scenarios and anyone who has felt them even lightly at that range has no doubt they work and would finish the encounter.

One example I can give is that with chi sau skills , very few can stop me getting a clavicle grab be they from wrestling, bjj or boxing. MT guys would have a better chance due to some crossover in sensitivity. This is chi sau sensitivity in action and without it you just cannot stop the hand getting in there and into the centreline.

For WC in the ring, the pace will be slower, footwork more mobile at range and use of the wider variety of WC attacks including uppercut and hooks.
So the issue is there are really two 'versions' of WC and the strategy is being applied in the wrong setting. We need to see a sport version for the ring which yes, can learn some things from ring sports about fighting at more range.

No I think you are talking about a different thing than what I was saying. I wasnt talking about moves in wingchun or other kungfu made illegal in sports fighting. I am suggesting that the reason why wc and kungfu do not work as well in a prizefighting arena and rules as boxing and muay thai is because of the historical origin of the former vs of the latter. The latter is optimised and designed from ground up and was built up through the accretion of experience of many generations of prize fighters to be purely unarmed in nature without any overhang or vestigial remnant of any weapons form origins.

Shaolin kungfu which is the source for most of Chinese martial arts seem to have weapons forms as their original form. They were then adapted into unarmed forms as last ditch defence option and later historically as battlefield weapons receded further into irrelevance the unarmed forms became taught more. Wingchun seems to have emerged at some point in the early 19th century in Canton. However it was probably a result of cross training and infusion by other arts especially fukien arts since it bears an uncanny resemblance to fukien phoenix chuka kungfu. This in turn taps into the stream of historical origin from shaolin kungfu - and thus weapon forms. The double knife of wc actually may be the most tell tale direct expression of that origin and in fact illustrates how wc stance and wc hand positions work ideally once you put blades weapons in those hands but once you go fully unarmed its deficiencies as a range variant art become apparent.

On getting illegal moves to work against a mma or boxing or muay thai fighter, you have to bear in mind that the other guy can also use illegal.moves too and being experienced in actual pro fighting he is well versed in ring craft. And since they lack the limitations of wingchun for unarmed fighting you are never goig to get into position to do your clavicle grab or to penetrate his guard to do so. Your language reveals your assumption that he will be acting like a wc exponent. The point is he wont be there nor remain in range for you to even get past his guard and the moment you extend your hand to do so is the same moment he evades you or flickers out of range and sends a hook into your temple or jaw or a roundhouse shin kick into your neck or clinches you and knees you...you will not have the chance to physically engage with his hands and forearms at all thereby nullifying a huge part of wc unarmed methodology. You will not be able to catch up with him doing so because your wc footwork is deathly slow by comparison.

If you adapt footwork to be more boxing footwork you will have to abandon wc punching technique also because you cannot power wc elbow driven punches with the much more floating base of boxing etc. If you use wc punches your head is totally exposed and with the immobile high head chin sticking out of wc fighters avoiding being punched in tbe head is fully reliant on parrying and that alone will not be enough. If you raise your hands to guard your head you are going against wc philosophy in employing a guard instead of intercepting attacks and you cannot derive punching power with your elbows so high. If you start bobbing and weaving to evade head punches you are abandoning the centreline philosophy of wc and instead adopting boxing philosophy to evade around the centreline.

Imho classical wingchun cannot be adapted to prizefighting and work well enough to be a practical option for a base instead of other disciplines in mma. It will take a wc teacher with profound wc mastery to have to tear the whole edifice down and start with a blank page and take the core essence and combative principles and create totally new techniques stances and approaches. There must also be a true knowledge of the mma disciplines rather than a theoretical knowledge gleaned only from observation rather than learning those arts. The problem is there anyone who can do that and wants to do that? Many people do wc and teach It but very few have that level of mastery and knowledge. And even fewer know and understand the mma disciplines on that level.

 

[TheMaster]

The video you posted showed alot of techniques that could be used in an MT fight. Head side underhook with a far side overhook, Shoulder bumping for space and throwing punches, head control with the collar tie. He probably learned most of that from Catching Wrestling, but they are universal grappling concepts no matter where you learn them. As for him being the inferior striker, Barnett was the better infighter, and moved straight to were he was best. There's generaly outside, the pocket, and inside. A fundamental concept of fighting is to move the fight to the range or postion you have the advantage. Outside, inside, against the cage, takedown to side control, pull guard. Its fighting 101.

The same way you talk about being footsweept from the "Thai Plum". If i grab a double collar tie and you posture up, you are going to lift my base and then you could well sweep me. If i have my elbows pivoting on your collarbone and pinched together tight, i need to breakdown your chin to your chest, then get your head to below mine. At that stage i control your head and posture. A universal concept of grappling is that if i control your head i control your balance. Your hip should be back and your spine bent over and weak. If you attempt to sweep or shoot, i use my elbows as a frame and drive your head down or swing you. I can now knee, release a collar tie to elbow/punch, or snap down to a front headlock.

You talk of these this positions like they are static, and doing X results in Y. There are counter to everything, there are counters to those counter and so on. If i stay anywhere too long and don't defend the counter im going to end up at a disadvantage.
There is strenght in questiong what you "know" to be right. Thats how you get better

You are repeating statements I have been making throughout. The BK fight shows one blueprint of a similar strategy for a WC type of approach to defeat boxing. Add grappling and even more clinch game it improves more.
You are also claiming it could apply to a MT strategy which I agree.

The idea would be neither to stand at range or to be 'in the pocket' with a boxer but to bring the fight to in-fighting and then parrying and clinch and inside fighting. This would nullify a boxer unless they could create space and free their hands more to land clean strikes, and when you add elbows would be even more effective.
There is absolutely no reason why a WC fighter who was trained and conditioned could not use a similar approach to great effect in this type of fight. They would be able to show more at the handtrapping range also.

 

[Sanserif]

You are repeating statements I have been making throughout. The BK fight shows one blueprint of a similar strategy for a WC type of approach to defeat boxing. Add grappling and even more clinch game it improves more.
You are also claiming it could apply to a MT strategy which I agree.

The idea would be neither to stand at range or to be 'in the pocket' with a boxer but to bring the fight to in-fighting and then parrying and clinch and inside fighting. This would nullify a boxer unless they could create space and free their hands more to land clean strikes, and when you add elbows would be even more effective.
There is absolutely no reason why a WC fighter who was trained and conditioned could not use a similar approach to great effect in this type of fight. They would be able to show more at the handtrapping range also.

"The idea would be neither to stand at range or to be 'in the pocket' with a boxer but to bring the fight to in-fighting and then parrying and clinch and inside fighting. "

Do you not see that this sentence is precisely the problem? You are expecting the boxer to fight the way a wc fighter fights. He will not do that - not if he is boxing. If you even get past the medium range without being hit with a stiff jab, he will move away from you faster than you can close the distance while continuously evading your attempts to engage his forearms or strike him and while hitting you. He will not allow you to get into your required range to deploy your strikes. That is what boxers are good at doing - they can knock you out while evading your strikes and circling away from you while seemingly retreating at speed.

 

[TheMaster]

"The idea would be neither to stand at range or to be 'in the pocket' with a boxer but to bring the fight to in-fighting and then parrying and clinch and inside fighting. "

Do you not see that this sentence is precisely the problem? You are expecting the boxer to fight the way a wc fighter fights. He will not do that - not if he is boxing. If you even get past the medium range without being hit with a stiff jab, he will move away from you faster than you can close the distance while continuously evading your attempts to engage his forearms or strike him and while hitting you. He will not allow you to get into your required range to deploy your strikes. That is what boxers are good at doing - they can knock you out while evading your strikes and circling away from you while seemingly retreating at speed.

Watch the Barnett-Rozalski fight for an example how this can be done.
Closing distance or corning them is another way.

Of course whoever can impose their strategy will win.
Barnett had success against a better striker in this BK format as he was able to apply his game. He still has however 3 losses to Crocop in MMA rules as he could not apply his strategy effectively against him.
.

 

[Sanserif]

Watch the Barnett-Rozalski fight for an example how this can be done.
Closing distance or corning them is another way.

Of course whoever can impose their strategy will win.
Barnett had success against a better striker in this BK format as he was able to apply his game. He still has however 3 losses to Crocop in MMA rules as he could not apply his strategy effectively against him.
.

What would the Barnett fight have to do with what you are postulating about wingchun applied to the ring or octagon? Barnett was using boxing principles to close the distance such as slipping the punch and then clinching up. His opponent was also very static and behaved like a brawler which is not what a boxer would be doing.

Now what barnett did is inapplicable to a wingchun fighter who would not and should not be slipping and weaving his way into the close quarter distance.

The following is an illustration of what a mma fighter who has been trained in amateur boxing would do with someone charging at him throwing punches


This is likely to be what happens when a wingchun fighter tries vainly to close the distance to apply his parrying skills and chain punch at close distance. The boxer dances out of range and angles so that he will snipe at his foe while maintaining full balance at all times. Note the wingchun exponent will be slower than werdum was and so it will be dven easier for the boxing trained fighter to evade him and pick him off.

 

[TheMaster]

What would the Barnett fight have to do with what you are postulating about wingchun applied to the ring or octagon? Barnett was using boxing principles to close the distance such as slipping the punch and then clinching up. His opponent was also very static and behaved like a brawler which is not what a boxer would be doing.

Now what barnett did is inapplicable to a wingchun fighter who would not and should not be slipping and weaving his way into the close quarter distance.

The following is an illustration of what a mma fighter who has been trained in amateur boxing would do with someone charging at him throwing punches


This is likely to be what happens when a wingchun fighter tries vainly to close the distance to apply his parrying skills and chain punch at close distance. The boxer dances out of range and angles so that he will snipe at his foe while maintaining full balance at all times. Note the wingchun exponent will be slower than werdum was and so it will be dven easier for the boxing trained fighter to evade him and pick him off.

You're being extremely rigid and mechanical in your thinking. Fighting is fighting. You do what you need to do to close distance. No need for bobbing and weaving but some movement will be required.
Even wrestlers learn this to close distance and clinch without getting hit.
Same with in-fighters.
Your remarks that WC fighters cannot in order to impose their game is ridiculous.

I also said that WC can be adapted as parry - counter system at longer range.

Same with your caricature of WC using a straight blast. You don't think everyone is aware of it and how to counter it now?
Charging in? It works best as a counter attack style.
How about we mix up some combinations like with elbows, parry-hooks and straights off line with angles etc?
The possibilities are endless with the WC arsenal.
I see WC as a dynamic system that hasn't shown even a small percentage of it's possibilities so far because it isn't done as a combat sport.

 

[Sanserif]

You're being extremely rigid and mechanical in your thinking. Fighting is fighting. You do what you need to do to close distance. No need for bobbing and weaving but some movement will be required.
Even wrestlers learn this to close distance and clinch without getting hit.
Same with in-fighters.
Your remarks that WC fighters cannot in order to impose their game is ridiculous.

I also said that WC can be adapted as parry - counter system at longer range.

Same with your caricature of WC using a straight blast. You don't think everyone is aware of it and how to counter it now?
Charging in? It works best as a counter attack style.
How about we mix up some combinations like with elbows, parry-hooks and straights off line with angles etc?
The possibilities are endless with the WC arsenal.
I see WC as a dynamic system that hasn't shown even a small percentage of it's possibilities so far because it isn't done as a combat sport.

I was not caricaturing wc. I happen to be a fan of the attributes that you can train with wc under the right teachers. I am however recognising its unsuitabulity in the ring or octagon and inadequacy to face off against boxing or kickboxing or muay thai.

The problem I highlighted is that wingchun is configured for close quarters telephone booth range infighting. It has no medium nor long range at all which is one of the big reasons why it is so unsuited for the ring or octagon against martial sports that do have them. It teaches no technique on how to close the gap - instead it assumes an opponent who will willingly enter the infighting range to meet their hands with committed attacks and engage with them in similar way as wc which was generally true of the 19th century in china with the kungfu arts that wc faced.

Contrary to boxing for example It has no technique nor solution to how to close the gap with an opponent who does not engage at that range.
You used wrestling as an example but wrestlers train specifically to close the gap and wrestling has specific techniques on how to change levels and shoot in safely. WC has nothing of the sort in all three patterns.

Parry hook or straights off line at angles will not work because the opponent wont be there to be hit.

Unless a wingchun grandmaster with practical knowledge of mma tears wc apart and builds a new martial system from its core principles to find a totally new way to express the same combative principles over every range and to be able to counter the attack vectors of the ring arts (which was how wc was originally created in the 19th century by kungfu masters who knew first hand the popular fighting arts then and who came up with a creative new way to combat them based on principles they derived from existing arts), it would appear that your well meaning project is doomed and you are better off just picking up a mma discipline as your base if you want to fight in the ring. Which is why sanda is really rebranded boxing and kickboxing and looks exactly like it with some nice throws, takedowns and dumps added.

 

[TheMaster]

I was not caricaturing wc. I happen to be a fan of the attributes that you can train with wc under the right teachers. I am however recognising its unsuitabulity in the ring or octagon and inadequacy to face off against boxing or kickboxing or muay thai.

The problem I highlighted is that wingchun is configured for close quarters telephone booth range infighting. It has no medium nor long range at all which is one of the big reasons why it is so unsuited for the ring or octagon against martial sports that do have them.

Contrary to boxing for example It has no technique nor solution to how to close the gap with an opponent who does not engage at that range.
You used wrestling as an example but wrestlers train specifically to close the gap and wrestling has specific techniques on how to change levels and shoot in safely. WC has nothing of the sort in all three patterns.

Parry hook or straights off line at angles will not work because the opponent wont be there to be hit.

Unless a wingchun grandmaster with practical knowledge of mma tears wc apart and builds a new martial system from its core principles to find a totally new way to express the same combative principles over every range and to be able to counter the attack vectors of the ring arts, it would appear that your well meaning project is doomed and you are better off just picking up a mma discipline as your base if you want to fight in the ring. Which is why sanda is really kickboxing and looks exactly like it with some nice throws takedowns and dumps.

No need to be dramatic.
Just extend the principles to longer range and use what works. We already have a very complete system for close quarters.
Extending it to medium range and working on entries is an important task to make it more suited to ring fighting and increase the practicality of it.
My explorations so far lead me to old time BK as the closest resembling system at that range, we will have to see how far it goes but we can draw on that for sure.

WC is not nearly as limited as you make out, the style and technuques do not collapse simply due to stance changes. The mechanics remain it really does not require a huge adjustment as you imply. Part of it is about disrupting the opponents ability to apply their game also.
Alan Orrs team is one example that has shown this and plenty of explanations for how the principles and core attributes remain when adapted in MMA already which furher refutes your idea that WC cannot adapt for the ring.


You forget boxing had to drastically modify the stance to work in MMA also. Changes are normal to adapt but the core engine remains.

Basically by your own admittance you are not very high level in WC so learn from guys who have mastered the system and used it successfully in the ring as it answers alot of your questions.

 

[Sanserif]

No need to 'tear it down' and be dramatic.
Just extend the principles to longer range and use what works. We already have a very complete system for close quarters.
Extending it to medium range and working on entries is an important task to make it more suited to ring fighting and increase the practicality of it.
My explorations so far lead me to old time BK as the closest resembling system at that range, we will have to see how far it goes but we can draw on that for sure.

WC is not nearly as limited as you make out, the style and technuques do not collapse simply due to stance changes. The mechanics remain it really does not require a huge adjustment as you imply. Part of it is about disrupting the opponents ability to apply their game also.
Alan Orrs team is one example that has shown this and plenty of explanations for how the principles and core attributes remain when adapted in MMA already which furher refutes your idea that WC cannot adapt for the ring.


You forget boxing had to drastically modify the stance to work in MMA also. Changes are normal to adapt but the core engine remains.

Basically by your own admittance you are not very high level in WC so learn from guys who have mastered the system and used it successfully in the ring as it answers alot of your questions.

I agree I am not high level at all in wc and in fact I have never declared myself to be a master of wc unlike perhaps you. But i believe nothing I have said is conceptually wrong and you have not shown any of my statements to be wrong.

The problem with your confident assertions is that you havent answered my concerns at all. Contraey to your surmise, there are no pro ring fighters whom I know of who have mastered wc and made wingchun work as a base successfully in the ring or octagon at all anywhere in the world. There are zero active fighters today who use wc as their base. Nobody who has shown your project is workable.

On the contrary boxing for example is part of the base of virtually every mma fighter. The stance of a boxer does not require much modification for mma contrary to your supposition.

You say just extend the range to medium or long range. That is like saying just make helium atoms fuse to start a self sustaining fusion reaction. Or just make a tiny hand held battery that can power electric cars and trucks. Just make the starship engine go faster to 99 per cent of the speed of light to go to alpha centauri. Of course that's the solution but just how to do it is the quintillion dollsr problem!!! Nobody knows how mate where wc is concerned ... and that is because it cannot be done without creating a totally new martial style.

The video link you showed doesnt show how a wc fighter can close the gap and has a wing chun's caricature of a boxer to face. (It reminds me of a wc class I once visited that showed a counter to the hook that didnt work with a real boxing hook. The problem was no one in the class including the instructors knew that because they didnt know to throw a real boxing hook...) The video has the same assumptions you do - they expect the boxer to stay there and engage with the wc man on the same terms. But no real boxer throws wide looping punchee like that and most of all does not leave his punching limb as a lever to be manipulated. Boxers instantly retract their punches and punch in combos and move all the time. No real boxer will stay there to allow the wc man to come in and do his chi sau applications. Instead he will vacate the space immediately and as the wc man comes in he will run face first into the first of many counter punches.

 

[AndyMaBobs]

As a wrestler I always called it a thai clinch to be more specific.



I've heard the term neck wrestling before but never like it. If I wrestle someones neck there's gonna be a lot of nelsons and cranking going on.

Noob

Noooo...you destroyed his whole 7 page thesis now.

What 7 page thesis? The two posts I made that other people also came and said you were wrong on? Are you that desperate for validation?

You're being extremely rigid and mechanical in your thinking. Fighting is fighting.

hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm...

it's really interesting how you keep contradicting yourself in this thread

 

[AndyMaBobs]

You're being extremely rigid and mechanical in your thinking. Fighting is fighting. You do what you need to do to close distance. No need for bobbing and weaving but some movement will be required.
Even wrestlers learn this to close distance and clinch without getting hit.
Same with in-fighters.
Your remarks that WC fighters cannot in order to impose their game is ridiculous.

I also said that WC can be adapted as parry - counter system at longer range.

Same with your caricature of WC using a straight blast. You don't think everyone is aware of it and how to counter it now?
Charging in? It works best as a counter attack style.
How about we mix up some combinations like with elbows, parry-hooks and straights off line with angles etc?
The possibilities are endless with the WC arsenal.
I see WC as a dynamic system that hasn't shown even a small percentage of it's possibilities so far because it isn't done as a combat sport.

I don't think you've ever actually answered or hypothesised why it isn't done as a combat sport? It's not that old a style, is comparitively old to okinawan karate styles as far as I know

 

[TheMaster]

On the contrary boxing for example is part of the base of virtually every mma fighter. The stance of a boxer does not require much modification for mma contrary to your supposition.

Boxing is a widely practiced sport with thousands of gyms of course they will be the art of choice for hands in MMA and don't expect that to change. This is their biggest advantage not the system itself.

But it has to be heavily modified. Peek a boo style will get you kneed or head kicked, to avoid takedowns they need a wider base which affects punching. Also at a loss in clinch, no elbows, can't punch properly BK etc.

You say just extend the range to medium or long range. That is like saying just make helium atoms fuse to start a self sustaining fusion reaction...Just make the engine go faster to 99 per cent of the speed of light to go to alpha centauri. Of course that's the solution but just how is the problem!!! Nobody knows how mate where wc is concerned ...

Um, how about, learning to counter punch?
Timing and intercepting steps?
Learning to use those parries at a bit further range? Not such a big hurdle.

You're making it sound like it's an unsolvable riddle its just a case of getting them to not just do chi sau and do more sparring then solutions will occur. Very few are doing this is the issue.

I agree it is new terrain for many schools but it's needed and we have some input from Orrs fighters amongst others.
Also, I should say that already some of WC is I believe designed for medium range counter attack and interception which is why many moves are not always applicable in chi sau range.

The kicks are another example and can be short or medium range.

 

[Sanserif]

Boxing is a widely practiced sport with thousands of gyms of course they will be the art of choice for hands in MMA and don't expect that to change. This is their biggest advantage not the system itself.

But it has to be heavily modified. Peek a boo style will get you kneed or head kicked, to avoid takedowns they need a wider base which affects punching. Also at a loss in clinch, no elbows, can't punch properly BK etc.



Um, how about, learning to counter punch?
Timing and intercepting steps?
Learning to use those parries at a bit further range? Not such a big hurdle.

You're making it sound like it's an unsolvable riddle its just a case of getting them to not just do chi sau and do more sparring then solutions will occur. Very few are doing this is the issue.

I agree it is new terrain for many schools but it's needed and we have some input from Orrs fighters amongst others.
Also, I should say that already some of WC is I believe designed for medium range counter attack and interception which is why many moves are not always applicable in chi sau range.

The kicks are another example and can be short or medium range.

The reason why boxing has thousands of gyms worldwide is because boxing created the prize fighting industry and is purpose built for the ring. Every part of it has developed and been improved and pressure tested by generations of boxers in countless actual full force sparring and real prize fights and it is without a doubt the world's best punching art in the purely unarmed fighting dimension. It isnt much use for defence against bladed weapons but theres nothing better for punching someone unconscious.

Theres no need to modify boxing for the clinch. Boxing has the clinch and how to enter it. What to do with the clinch and in the clinch would be the preserve of the other mma disciplines like muay thai or wrestling. There isnt that much adjustment needed to the base of boxing for mma - you can see with any mma fight that the slightly wider and lower base doesnt affect knockout power in their punches. The problem with peekaboo style is not being head kicked or kneed - the overarm guard can defend against head kicks even in peekaboo and if you are that close to deploy the knee (peekaboo doesnt bring the head that low to the ground actually), the hook from the peekaboo will beat the knee to the punch. The weakness of boxing is really to the low kick and calf kick - the vulnerability of the feet which is why the mma fight needs the other disciplines like muay thai to defend against those. But that's why mma is a fusion of different disciplines as every system as its weakness.

On your counter points how do you use timing or intercepting steps when the boxer evades faster than you move forward. He reacts to you. And he is punching you while he is doing that. How do you counter punch him when hes no longer there for you to counter? Your problem is still mobility, remember ? Which is his strength. You parrying his jab isnt the issue - its when you try to counter that's the problem. He breaks contact when you counter and as you rush or reach forward the angle opens for him to counter hit you without you being able to hit him.

None of this that I'm trying to tell you, you will really appreciate unless you have trained in boxing or muay thai before. The problem is that from the sound of yoir posts you havent trained in boxing nor muay thai and you are only speaking from an outsider pov and that's not enough. It's not an unsolvable riddle but it needs people willing to invest the time with a true mastery of wc and who also have a true understanding of mma. And those people havent emerged yet. But if it is ever solved the solution will likely look nothing like wc - it will be something that looks completely different, a fresh solution for 21st century problems and opposition.

 

[AndyMaBobs]

The reason why boxing has thousands of gyms worldwide is because boxing created the prize fighting industry and is purpose built for the ring. Every part of it has developed and been improved and pressure tested by generations of boxers in countless actual full force sparring and real prize fights and it is without a doubt the world's best punching art in the purely unarmed fighting dimension. It isnt much use for defence against bladed weapons but theres nothing better for punching someone unconscious.

Theres no need to modify boxing for the clinch. Boxing has the clinch and how to enter it. What to do with the clinch and in the clinch would be the preserve of the other mma disciplines like muay thai or wrestling. There isnt that much adjustment needed to the base of boxing for mma - you can see with any mma fight that the slightly wider and lower base doesnt affect knockout power in their punches. The problem with peekaboo style is not being head kicked or kneed - the overarm guard can defend against head kicks even in peekaboo and if you are that close to deploy the knee (peekaboo doesnt bring the head that low to the ground actually), the hook from the peekaboo will beat the knee to the punch. The weakness of boxing is really to the low kick and calf kick - the vulnerability of the feet which is why the mma fight needs the other disciplines like muay thai to defend against those. But that's why mma is a fusion of different disciplines as every system as its weakness.

On your counter points how do you use timing or intercepting steps when the boxer evades faster than you move forward. He reacts to you. And he is punching you while he is doing that. How do you counter punch him when hes no longer there for you to counter? Your problem is still mobility, remember ? Which is his strength. You parrying his jab isnt the issue - its when you try to counter that's the problem. He breaks contact when you counter and as you rush or reach forward the angle opens for him to counter hit you without you being able to hit him.

None of this that I'm trying to tell you, you will really appreciate unless you have trained in boxing or muay thai before. The problem is that from the sound of yoir posts you havent trained in boxing nor muay thai and you are only speaking from an outsider pov and that's not enough. It's not an unsolvable riddle but it needs people willing to invest the time with a true mastery of wc and who also have a true understanding of mma. And those people havent emerged yet. But if it is ever solved the solution will likely look nothing like wc - it will be something that looks completely different, a fresh solution for 21st century problems and opposition.

Very well said.

It goes back to j123's point from earlier

Spoiler

Also, nobody fucking uses the peekaboo style

 

[Sanserif]

I don't think you've ever actually answered or hypothesised why it isn't done as a combat sport? It's not that old a style, is comparitively old to okinawan karate styles as far as I know

Afaik the beimo challenge matches on the rooftops of hongkong in the late 50s and more official challenge fights of the period was the last time wingchun had real fights with other arts. There are also recently fights that have been organised in china itself and the more sensational have been those between some unfortunate wc exponents with some mma fighters on china tv which did not end well for the former.

 

[TheMaster]

It's not an unsolvable riddle but it needs people willing to invest the time with a true mastery of wc and who also have a true understanding of mma. And those people havent emerged yet. But if it is ever solved the solution will likely look nothing like wc - it will be something that looks completely different, a fresh solution for 21st century problems and opposition.

Boxing is a sport. And sports get popular because people can do them and enjoy watching them.

WC isn't a sport so won't ever have such a following.

Also modern boxing is pressure tested for Queensbury rules. A we have seen in BK, it's possible a world champion gets busted up by a journeyman MMA fighter in the clinch in BK.
It is not anywhere near as pressure tested in BK, or in MMA although its getting better. But the fact Olympic wrestlers can KTFO golden glove boxers in MMA tells you it's a different environment and needs adaptation.

As for what WC will look like in MMA, if we go past your dramatics, we already know and I agree it will look something like this when close.



At range, something like the old time BK system with heavy parrying is a good approximation until the style is more widely done at that range.

 

[Sanserif]

Boxing is a sport. And sports get popular because people can do them and enjoy watching them.

WC isn't a sport so won't ever have such a following.

Also modern boxing is pressure tested for Queensbury rules. A we have seen in BK, it's possible a world champion gets busted up by a journeyman MMA fighter in the clinch in BK.
It is not anywhere near as pressure tested in BK, or in MMA although its getting better. But the fact Olympic wrestlers can KTFO golden glove boxers in MMA tells you it's a different environment and needs adaptation.

As for what WC will look like in MMA, if we go past your dramatics, we already know and I agree it will look something like this when close.



At range, something like the old time BK system with heavy parrying is a good approximation until the style is more widely done at that range.

Yet again the new video link you supplied shows them doing chi sau applications...they are again voluntarily entering the hand parrying range and trying to defeat each other with that modality. They are still training to fight other wc fighters and with a lack of awareness that their range is still the same wc range for all the desire to modernise the art. But a fighter from an mma discipline will not do any of that! This is why the paradigm is so difficult to break because the mind is held captive and bound by the paradigm.

Because boxing is a sport and more importantly a monetised sport with tv money that offers employment and the promise of raising their financial circs to the poor, it has a vast number of serious pro athletes training in it and coaches who are incentivised to do so as their living. Which raises the bar and the standards vastly which makes boxing so effective. If you want to save WC's future and to update it for the ring, you have to turn it into a martial sport and better yet a pro martial sport.

On the idea of a ex world champion busted up by a journeyman mma in bare knuckle boxing or wrestlers knocking out golden gloves boxers in mma I'm not sure which fight your are ref to. But i fail to see your point - ALL of them are using boxing against each other. How does that help your point for wingchun? All of those fighters using boxing will most likely wreck any wingchun exponent in the world whether in mma or bare knuckle boxing.

Also do you notice nobody in modern bare knuckle boxing using the old time styles of the 19th century ? There is a reason for that - because modern boxing is far more effective. Otherwise people would have shifted back to the old ways out of sheer practicality.

 

[TheMaster]

Yet again the new video link you supplied shows them doing chi sau applications...they are again voluntarily entering the hand parrying range and trying to defeat each other with that modality. They are still training to fight other wc fighters and with a lack of awareness that their range is still the same wc range for all the desire to modernise the art. But a fighter from an mma discipline will not do any of that! This is why the paradigm is so difficult to break because the mind is held captive and bound by the paradigm.

Because boxing is a sport and more importantly a monetised sport with tv money that offers employment and the promise of raising their financial circs to the poor, it has a vast number of serious pro athletes training in it and coaches who are incentivised to do so as their living. Which raises the bar and the standards vastly which makes boxing so effective. If you want to save WC's future and to update it for the ring, you have to turn it into a martial sport and better yet a pro martial sport.

On the idea of a ex world champion busted up by a journeyman mma in bare knuckle boxing or wrestlers knocking out golden gloves boxers in mma I'm not sure which fight your are ref to. But i fail to see your point - ALL of them are using boxing against each other. How does that help your point for wingchun? All of those fighters using boxing will most likely wreck any wingchun exponent in the world whether in mma or bare knuckle boxing.

Also do you notice nobody in modern bare knuckle boxing using the old time styles of the 19th century ? There is a reason for that - because modern boxing is far more effective. Otherwise people would have shifted back to the old ways out of sheer practicality.

Same concept, just do it at range.



It will take time but a natural evolution will take place.



Also, I would far prefer they use MMA sparring gloves but this is how they choose to do it.
WC principles in sparring with gloves.
Slight head movement where needed but not so much it offsets balance ,still emphasizes the parrying in-fighting style.
This form of sparring puts focus on punches not so much elbow work.

 

[Sanserif]

Same concept, just do it at range.



It will take time but a natural evolution will take place.



Also, I would far prefer they use MMA sparring gloves but this is how they choose to do it.
WC principles in sparring with gloves.
Slight head movement where needed but not so much it offsets balance ,still emphasizes the parrying in-fighting style.
This form of sparring puts focus on punches not so much elbow work.

I hate to break it to you but what they are doing in those links is in fact western boxing. The force generation for all the punches is the western boxing engine. Total abandonment of the elbow driven wc punching system. The parries are in fact boxing parries. The stance is even orthodox boxing stance and boxing footwork. Not just "a little" head movement - they are evading the punches like boxers and abandoning penetration of the centreline.

It seems the only way they were able to convert wc for the ring was to remove all the wc and adopt boxing...